以下是克里斯塔·蒂佩特 (Krista Tippett) 和让·瓦尼埃 (Jean Vanier) 在 onbeing.org 网站上的访谈录音和文字稿。
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target="_blank" class="share-icon d-none d-sm-inline-flex" aria-label="Share on WhatsApp"> <i class="fab fa-whatsapp"></i> </a> </div> </div> </div> <!-- Story Content --> <div class="story-content" id="dg_story"> <div class="dark-link perm_post"> 四十多年来，拉尔什一直在经历着某种变革。你知道，我可能——或者说我可能——难以接受某些改变，或者难以意识到经验的重要性。有时，你想紧紧抓住原则不放，但经验却告诉你，要走得更远，走得更远。</p><p> [<em>音乐：《午夜时分（器乐版）》，作曲：韦斯·斯温</em>]</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>还有一点，你知道，关于拉尔什，我想到的智慧之一，正如你所说，就是它的存在，它切实的临在。我——这也是我经常在不同的场合与人讨论的话题：西方文化中的人们常常通过电视、报纸上一些骇人听闻的故事，或者看到一些令人心碎的照片来感受到世界的苦难，比如我前几天看到的一张伊拉克孩子在葬礼上哭泣的照片，它让我好几天都难以释怀。然而，我却无能为力，你知道吗？他远在千里之外。我想我也意识到，我不仅无法直接触及他的痛苦或痛苦的根源，而且我也不知道他从哪里获得慰藉。我不知道什么能帮助他第二天重新振作起来，开始疗愈。我只是，我把这些话说出来……</p><p><b>瓦尼尔先生：</b>你现在看到的是……</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>是的。</p><p><b>瓦尼耶先生：</b>你看，我们身处一个科技飞速发展的全球化世界。然而，电视，甚至手机和互联网，却让我们与人际关系渐行渐远，明白吗？收到一封邮件，你看不到对方的眼睛，看不到对方的脸，看不到对方的微笑，看不到对方的双手，也听不到对方的语气。我们必须回归“小即是美”的真谛，因为小才是我们真正……</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>全球科技的发展可能会让我们重新回到“小即是美”的时代，这难道不是一件很有趣的事吗？</p><p><b>瓦尼耶先生：</b>或许吧。或者说，让我们暂时抛开它。正如我刚才所说，你看，我的意思是，当你看着那个伊拉克孩子，你身负重伤，想要做些什么，然而，你却因无能为力而束手无策，因为孩子不在你面前。如果孩子在你面前，你就能把他抱在怀里。所以我们进入了一个想象、虚拟、远距离的世界，远处的事物看起来近在咫尺。但你却无法触及它们。它们在想象中很近，但在现实中却遥不可及。所以，让我们回到现实，回到小的事物。在那里，我们才能……</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>就像住在我们街对面的那些人一样。</p><p><b>瓦尼埃先生：</b>我们可以触摸他们，我们可以和他们在一起。拉尔什的难处——它本身也是一种美——我说这是我们的难处，也是我们的美，在于它很小，非常小，而且……</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>它规模虽小，但拉尔什的故事是这样的：从法国的一个社区，如今已遍布世界各地。你们在非洲，在孟加拉国，您也谈到了加尔各答，以及您提到的其他一些地方。</p><p><b>瓦尼耶先生：</b>是的。方舟之家发展壮大了。但在这个人们被迫假装自己很强大的世界里，每天的现实有时令人感到痛苦，因为渺小本身就是一种折磨。</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>我认为确实如此，你反复强调你不想通过“方舟之家”改变世界，这本身就是一种深刻的反主流文化观点。那不是我们的目标。</p><p><b>瓦尼耶先生：</b>正如甘地所说，我们无法改变世界，但我可以改变自己。如果我改变，如果我努力对人更加开放，不再害怕建立关系，如果我开始看到他们身上美好的一面，如果我也意识到他们身上有缺陷，因为我自己也有缺陷，而这也没关系，那么一些事情就会开始发生。</p><p>但这确实有点反主流文化，不过这并不重要。我预感到，在我们这个可怜的小世界——它面临着生态和经济上的种种困境——的未来，或许会发生一件大事：爱的微光将在全国各地蔓延。在那些人们彼此相爱、接纳穷人和弱势群体的小地方，我们互相赠予，拥有这些小小的爱的港湾。你知道，我们或许永远不会成为头条新闻，但我们会创造这些点点滴滴的小灯。如果每个村庄、每个城市，甚至城市的每个角落都有足够多的小灯，那么这光芒就会更加耀眼。</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>您曾说过，拉尔什之家不是为了解决问题而是为了表达某种理念，您是怎么说的？</p><p><b>瓦尼耶先生：</b>是的，我们做不到。你看，我曾经和美国一个大城市的一位男士交谈过。他说：“把秘诀告诉我，我两年内就能建300个拉尔什之家。”我说：“事情不是这样的。这是一种愿景的传承，它是一种反主流文化。但这没关系。这就是我们，这就是我们。”</p><p> [<em>音乐：Tin Hat Trio 的《Esperanto》</em> ]</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>我是克里斯塔·蒂佩特，欢迎收听<em>《论存在》</em> 。今天，我们将探讨让·瓦尼埃对宗教美德、世间苦难以及“温柔的智慧”的理解。</p><p> [<em>音乐：Tin Hat Trio 的《Esperanto》</em> ]</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>我现在坐在华盛顿郊外，您正在和大学生们见面——您周末一直在带领他们进行静修。我很好奇他们教会了您什么——我感觉您是一位经常与人交流的人，因为您经常谈到要谦逊地与人相处，并不断学习。那么，您从他们身上学到了什么呢？另外，我也很好奇，在您79岁这个人生阶段，您是如何看待自己身体的变化、衰老以及我们每个人在生命尽头都会经历的虚弱的？这些变化对您有什么影响？我有两个问题。</p><p><b>瓦尼尔先生：我</b>有两个问题。</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>是的。</p><p><b>瓦尼耶先生：</b>两个问题。是的，年轻人的美好之处在于他们的开放、渴望和热情。另一方面，他们也会感到沮丧，因为这台机器太庞大了，这台世界机器太庞大了。</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>没错，就是我们一直在讨论的那个话题。</p><p><b>瓦尼耶先生：</b>是啊，它太大了。所以人们既有强烈的渴望和渴求，也有对承诺的恐惧。当然，在某些方面，他们受到了太多的操控。回想一下我六十多年前的青春期，那时一切都简单得多。如今，科技如此发达，人们如此兴奋，但我们却在逐渐失去对人性的理解。这让我又回到了第二个问题……</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>好的。</p><p><b>瓦尼埃先生：</b> ……也就是说，我是人。我有弱点，我有脆弱，有心脏方面的疾病，我必须默默承受。而且，我的精神也更容易疲惫。所以，我只能接受现实。你看，对我来说，最重要的是热爱现实，而不是活在想象中，活在对现实的“可能”、“应该”或“未来”的幻想中，而是去热爱现实，然后发现上帝就存在于现实之中。但这并不意味着我们要被动地接受现实，因为我们也必须知道如何面对现实。</p><p>现实是美好的，但如何才能真正地活在现实中，如何才能坦然面对自己的身体、自己的弱点、自己对充足睡眠的需求（比如午饭后就想睡觉等等）——这就是我的现实。我知道，很多年后——也许是五年后——我可能就得坐轮椅了，或者其他什么情况。</p><p>我的意思是，我正走向那个终极现实，一个离我们更近的现实——死亡。我的秘书芭芭拉，她为我工作了40年，去年七月去世了。我们手牵着手待了两个小时，她就这么走了。不要害怕死亡。死亡是一段旅程，它将是一次非凡的发现，一件我们无法想象的奇妙之事。</p><p>就像我那个死于艾滋病的小侄女，她生前并不信教。她问我：“那会是什么样子？”我说：“你会睡着。醒来的时候，你会感到无比的喜悦和平静。那是你从未体验过的。”她说：“可是我不信教。”我说：“你还记得你在巴黎的公寓里，给一些土耳其移民做蛋糕吗？我一直觉得你是个善良的人。所以，你的善良会让你觉得一切都会好起来的。至于其他的，我们以后再慢慢发现。那将会很精彩，很美好。”</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>这是你显然知道的另一件事。你知道这一点。而你所有的哲学思想，你所有的学习都无法向你解释这一点，这是你明明知道的。</p><p><b>瓦尼尔先生：</b>是的。我们都经历过——你看，如果你体验过耶稣带来的平安，体验过与他人相处的平安，体验过爱人的平安，那么——这种体验超越了一切，超越了我们可能拥有的任何想法，因为正是在这种体验中，我们才能真正地活出信任。在希腊语中，“信仰”和“信任”是同一个词。信任他人，信任上帝，信任我们心中的平安，也信任那些正在努力寻求平安、承受着愤怒和痛苦的人。这都没关系。我们同舟共济。</p><p> [<em>音乐：奥拉维尔·阿纳尔兹的《牧神》</em> ]</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>我只想再问您一个问题。我确信您不喜欢被人提醒，就像特蕾莎修女生前被人尊称为圣人一样，而让·瓦尼埃生前也被人尊称为圣人。而且我感觉您并没有投入太多精力去追求圣人的地位。最近，特蕾莎修女的信件被披露，其中透露她曾与黑暗和抑郁作斗争，这引起了很大的轰动。我想知道您对此有何反应……</p><p><b>瓦尼尔先生：</b>再次强调，还有很多问题。</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>是的，有很多问题。</p><p><b>瓦尼耶先生：</b>我对这个问题的回应是……</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>是的。</p><p><b>瓦尼埃先生：</b> ……我非常了解母亲。</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>是的。</p><p><b>瓦尼耶先生：</b>她是一位了不起的女性。我经常和她一起吃早餐，她会跟我讲她在也门的基金会，讲她希望如何去中国，讲她在非洲的工作等等。她或许在祈祷方面会遇到困难，但她对自己的使命从未有过丝毫怀疑。</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>嗯。我的意思是，我觉得大家对此感到惊讶，某种程度上与您刚才所说的有关，您热爱现实，而她正直面现实。从某种定义上来说，她或许是一位圣人，但这并不意味着她远离了黑暗。事实上，这意味着她真正地触及了黑暗，直面了黑暗，并与之抗争……</p><p><b>瓦尼埃先生：</b>你看，她承受着巨大的痛苦。她承受着如此巨大的痛苦，却有人认为这会动摇她的信仰——她从未动摇过自己的信仰，而是在祈祷中与痛苦共存。这就是每个人都会经历的。我的意思是，这就是人类的现实。我认为，当特蕾莎修女写下这些文字、讲述这些故事时——我至今仍然感到难过，因为她说那些东西应该被销毁。而我们却没有认真对待她的话。但她显然是一位饱受痛苦折磨的女性。</p><p>所以，当你极度痛苦时，你的祷告也会充满痛苦。我的意思是，不要感到惊讶，也不要小题大做。这是每个人都会经历的现实。她现在告诉我们，停止思考这种痛苦。继续前进，开始爱人。我们必须听从她的话，那就是我们会因穷人而得到医治。所以，让我们行动起来吧。</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>好的。好的。好的。谢谢。对于被拿来和她相提并论，被视为在世圣人，您有什么想说的吗？</p><p><b>瓦尼尔先生：</b>圣洁地把它放进去——重要的是成为耶稣的小朋友。</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>好的。这是你最后发言。非常感谢。</p><p> [<em>音乐：洛杉矶吉他四重奏演奏的《约克（A）班图》</em> ]</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>让·瓦尼埃是拉尔什联盟的创始人，该联盟于2015年庆祝成立50周年。他现在全职居住在法国特罗利-布勒伊的拉尔什创始社区。他的著作包括<em>《与陌生人交朋友》</em> 、 <em>《拉尔什的故事》</em>和<em>《时代的征兆》</em> 。</p><p> [<em>音乐：洛杉矶吉他四重奏演奏的《约克（A）班图》</em> ]</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>您可以再次收听本期节目，或访问 onbeing.org 与 Jean Vanier 分享。您也可以在那里订阅我们的每周电子邮件简讯。从奥米德·萨菲的<a href="http://onbeing.org/blog/the-disease-of-being-busy/7023">《忙碌之病》</a>到考特尼·马丁的<a href="http://onbeing.org/blog/the-spiritual-art-of-saying-no/6718">《说“不”的精神艺术》，</a>每周都会带您探索人生的无限可能。要订阅，只需点击 onbeing.org 网站上任意页面的“新闻简讯”即可。</p><p> [<em>音乐：Emancipator 的《Safe in the Steep Cliffs》</em> ]</p><p> <em>On Being 的成员</em>包括 Trent Gilliss、Chris Heagle、Lily Percy、Mariah Helgeson、Nicki Oster、Michelle Keeley 和 Selena Carlson。</p><p>本周特别感谢琼·马勒和安妮塔修女。</p><p> [<em>音乐：Emancipator 的《Safe in the Steep Cliffs》</em> ]</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>我们的主要资助伙伴是：约翰·邓普顿基金会。</p><p>福特基金会与世界各地社会变革前沿的远见卓识者携手合作，详情请访问 Fordfoundation.org。</p><p>费策尔研究所致力于提升人们对爱与宽恕力量的认识，以期改变我们的世界。访问 Fetzer.org 了解更多信息。</p><p> Kalliopeia 基金会致力于支持那些将敬畏、互惠和韧性融入现代生活结构的组织。</p><p>以及 Osprey 基金会，一个致力于促进人们拥有健康、充实和幸福生活的组织。</p><p>我们的企业赞助商是美国互惠保险公司（Mutual of America）。自 1945 年以来，美国民众一直信赖美国互惠保险公司，帮助他们规划退休生活，实现长期财务目标。美国互惠保险公司致力于提供优质的产品和服务，帮助您积累和保值资产，确保财务安全。</p> </div> </div> <!-- Story Credits --> <!-- 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href="https://www.dailygood.org/story/1893/-p-br-em-krista-tippett-jean-vanier-onbeing-org-em-p-p-iframe-allow-autoplay-frameborder-no-height-300-scrolling-no-src-https-w-soundcloud-com-player-url-https-3a-api-soundcloud-com-tracks-2076-unknown-yet/?t=showComment&cid=7274" class="ms-auto link-icon text-muted"><i class='fa fa-link'></i></a> </div> <div class="comment-content"> <p>An inspiring and soothing conversation...Thank you! The sound of your voice, "little friend of Jesus", was gentle to my ears, tender to my heart and senses. May your words and actions help us put our intentions and good principles into concrete, benevolent deeds no matter how small they may be. Namasté!</p> </div> <div class="comment-actions"> <a href="https://www.dailygood.org/story/1893/-p-br-em-krista-tippett-jean-vanier-onbeing-org-em-p-p-iframe-allow-autoplay-frameborder-no-height-300-scrolling-no-src-https-w-soundcloud-com-player-url-https-3a-api-soundcloud-com-tracks-2076-unknown-yet/?t=showComment&cid=7274#addcomment" class="reply-link" data-cmt-id="7274" data-cmt-author="Sidonie Foadey"><i class="bi bi-reply"></i> Reply</a> <span class="btn-light post_btn small"></span> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> <script> $(document).ready(function() { // Toggle between short and full comments $('.see_full_cmt').on('click', function(e) { e.preventDefault(); var cid = $(this).attr('cid'); $('.short_cmt' + cid).hide(); $('.long_cmt' + cid).show(); }); $('.see_short_cmt').on('click', function(e) { e.preventDefault(); var cid = $(this).attr('cid'); $('.long_cmt' + cid).hide(); $('.short_cmt' + cid).show(); }); }); </script> </div> <!-- Related Stories --> <!-- Audio Modal --> </div> </div> </div> </div> </section> <script src="js/story.js?3hto"></script> <!-- Footer --> <footer class="footer"> <div class="container"> <div class="row"> <div class="col-md-5 mb-4 mb-md-0"> <h5 class="footer-title">About DailyGood</h5> <p class="footer-about-text"> For over 29 years, DailyGood has been a volunteer-led movement to share uplifting stories that connect hearts and inspire action — all without ads, agendas, or asks. 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