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<div class="story-meta-left"> <div class="story-logo"> <a href="https://www.dailygood.org"> <img alt="DailyGood" src="https://www.karunanews.org/pics/90x90.jpg"> </a> </div> <div class="story-meta-info"> <div class="story-author">By <a href="/author?name=On%20Being">On Being</a></div> <div class="story-details"> <span class="story-date">May 28, 2018</span> <span class="story-read-time">1 min read</span> </div> <div class="story-source">Source: <a href="https://onbeing.org/programs/nature-joy-and-human-becoming-may2018/" target="_blank">onbeing.org</a></div> </div> </div>  <div class="story-meta-right">  <div class="utility-buttons"> <div class="dropdown"> <button class="utility-btn translate-btn dropdown-toggle py-1" type="button" id="translationDropdown" data-bs-toggle="dropdown" aria-expanded="false"> <i class="fa fa-language me-2" aria-hidden="true"></i>Chinese (PRC) </button> <ul class="dropdown-menu dropdown-menu-end translation-dropdown" aria-labelledby="translationDropdown" 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尤其是伦敦。我有一些美国观鸟爱好者朋友，我说：“我们的麻雀都不见了”，他们就说：“好吧，你们可以把我们的拿走。”</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>就是这样。[<em>笑</em>]</p><p><b>麦卡锡先生：</b>尤其是在纽约。是啊，这很奇怪。我以前在<em>《独立</em>报》工作，现在它已经是线上报纸了，以前是份大报。从2000年开始，我们着重报道了家麻雀基本上已经从伦敦市中心消失了。20年前，那里有成百上千只家麻雀。你去白金汉宫附近的圣詹姆斯公园，就能看到有人卖给你一小袋麻雀种子，然后你胳膊上就会落下50只麻雀。大约20年的时间里，它们全都消失了。问题是，即使到了今天，在我们开始报道这件事近20年后，仍然没有人真正知道这是为什么。所以，这真是一个巨大的生态谜团。</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>我认为你在这里想表达的更重要的一点是，正如你所说，我们并没有追踪所有这些信息。我们甚至没有追踪大部分信息。这种现象——几乎只有在它消失的时候，你才会注意到它，注意到它曾经的丰富。不过，你和鸟类学家马克斯·尼科尔森的对话很有意思。</p><p><b>麦卡锡先生：</b>他是所有人的鼻祖。他是二战后自然保护运动的奠基人。他曾担任政府官员，同时也是一位资深生物学家。他对家麻雀数量的减少尤为关注，因为在他年轻的时候，他和他的兄弟在1925年——我想应该是11月1日——统计了伦敦肯辛顿花园（圣詹姆斯公园的延伸部分）的所有麻雀数量。他们统计到的数量是2603只。75年后，我与他同一天再次来到肯辛顿花园，与伦敦自然历史学会的成员一起尝试统计麻雀的数量，结果他们统计到的数量只有8只。</p><p>我去拜访他时，他提出了一个独特的理论。他认为，随着麻雀数量的减少，最终可能会出现群体自我毁灭的现象。这种现象有一个科学名称，叫做阿利效应，以20世纪30年代一位名叫沃德·阿利的美国生物学家的名字命名。该理论认为，群居繁殖物种数量的减少会形成自我强化的效应。随着它们数量的减少，最终会走向解散。他认为这可能就是麻雀正在经历的，因为麻雀是群居动物，它们成群筑巢。他说——他无法证明这一点——但他接着说，世界上发生的很多事情都无法被证明，但它们仍然是真实存在的。</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>所以，回到我们讨论这个问题的更宏观的框架，以及我们讨论这类问题的方式——当它演变成一场辩论，当它演变成关于需要解决的问题或是否需要解决的问题时，我想，有人可能会说：“没有麻雀我们也能活下去。” 显然，伦敦没有麻雀也照常运转。我认为你的论点是，如果我们失去了自然，我们就会变得不完整；我们会变得不如我们进化时所期望的那样完整。你甚至说，我们将无法获得真正的和平。</p><p><b>麦卡锡先生：</b>我个人也是这么想的。当然，我确信很多人不会认同这种观点，或许是因为——我不想对那些持不同意见的人居高临下，但你可能会说，是因为他们很少接触自然，也看不到自然对人类的益处。但我个人认为，自然界是我们进化的摇篮，是我们的思维进化之地，是让我们成为真正自我的地方，也是我们真正感到最自在的地方。</p><p>即便——想想看——即便你是个千万富翁，去享受昂贵的假期，你也喜欢看日落，对吧？你会说：“亲爱的，快来看日落，美极了！”——即便你仿佛被财富或其他什么隔绝了，与自然本身隔绝开来，仍然会有那么一些时刻，自然深深地触动你。我认为，对很多人来说，这种情况不会发生，因为那种与自然世界古老的联系——我相信我们拥有这种联系，而且它是经验上真实的，不仅仅是一种哲学建构，而是实实在在存在的——已经被掩盖了，不是吗？它不仅被五百代文明所掩盖，也被现代生活的喧嚣所掩盖。</p><p>我的观点并非我们都热爱自然，但我的观点是我们都有能力热爱自然，因为在我们内心深处，在我们心灵的最深处，我们与自然界有着联系，这真正触及了我们存在的本质。</p><p> [<em>音乐：“Passage”，演唱者：Lowercase Noises</em> ]</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>我是克丽斯塔·蒂佩特，这里是<em>《论存在》</em> 。今天，我们邀请到了博物学家兼记者迈克尔·麦卡锡。</p><p> [<em>音乐：“Passage”，演唱者：Lowercase Noises</em> ]</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>公共卫生领域涌现出一批关于人与自然接触和人类福祉的文献。</p><p><b>麦卡锡先生：</b>哦，当然。这方面的文献浩如烟海，尤其是在美国。</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>尤其是——是的，还有一件事我一直在研究，因为我最近一直在研究这个想法——那就是关于敬畏的全新科学，以及敬畏如何成为一种决定性的人类体验，并且实际上会产生后果——</p><p><b>麦卡锡先生：</b> ‘敬畏’这个词。</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>敬畏；实际上——而且研究这个的都是科学家，他们并非宗教人士——这种人类的敬畏体验，比其他任何情感都更能促使人们合作、分享资源、为他人牺牲，因此敬畏与利他主义之间存在着联系。但让我感兴趣的是，因为我知道接下来要和您谈，当他们举例说明人类如何体验敬畏时，几乎所有例子都与置身自然界有关，几乎每一个都是如此。这——</p><p><b>麦卡锡先生：</b>继续，继续。我觉得这很有意思。</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>是的，我知道这一点，而且，我认为你的想法很有启发性——你说人文主义，实际上，我们的人文主义遗产，实际上是问题的一部分；我们一直有这种关于自身善良的看法，我们的道德是以人类为中心的，而这在这样的时刻实际上使事情变得更加复杂。</p><p><b>麦卡锡先生：</b>嗯，我给它起了个名字。我说，自二战结束以来，我们西方人奉行的哲学，我想我说过，可以称之为自由世俗人文主义。我说，这是一种信条，它有一个单一而崇高的目标，那就是在各个方面增进人类福祉——它希望每个人都能摆脱饥饿、恐惧和疾病，尽可能地过上幸福充实的生活——但它的核心存在一个缺陷，那就是它没有意识到人性并非天生善良。我们能做什么或应该做什么，难道就没有限制吗？没有，完全没有。然而，限制确实存在。因此，在这种信仰体系下，我们无法正视我们通过发展以及其他一切手段对世界造成的实际影响，那就是我们正在摧毁我们自己的家园，以及我们目前赖以生存的哲学体系，而这个体系却没有意识到，作为人类，我们倾向于做非常邪恶的事情。正因如此，我们才无法对抗这种趋势。</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>我看到您曾多次使用“救赎”一词——</p><p><b>麦卡锡先生：</b>嗯，那是我内心深处的老基督徒的一面在作祟。</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>那是你身上老派天主教的影子。但我觉得，其中也回荡着我们潜在的破坏力，但是——春天究竟代表什么呢？春天讲述的是诞生、死亡和复活的故事；复活节恰好在春天到来，这绝非巧合。无论人们是否去教堂，这都是春天的故事。我能感受到你的希望——你相信，在与自然世界的关系中，我们能够获得救赎；正如你所说，自然是我们的家园。</p><p><b>麦卡锡先生：</b>有时候我觉得还有希望；有时候我觉得毫无希望。也许这是人之常情。但对我而言，基督教最伟大的方面无疑是救赎。在我们的社会里，我们都庆祝圣诞节，不是吗？或者说我们曾经庆祝过，但我们对复活节却漠不关心。然而，基督教真正的伟大仪式是复活节。即使是罪大恶极的人，也能得到宽恕，这真是一个非凡的概念。至于人类继续在地球上肆意破坏，他们是否还能得到宽恕，我不得而知。</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>您在书的结尾谈到了爱，一种新型的爱，这其中穿插着您与母亲的故事，以及您与母亲的关系。但同时，您也巧妙地将“同时”这个词融入到对我们与自然世界之间新型关系的想象中。是这样吗？</p><p><b>麦卡锡先生：</b>是的，我们很多人都热爱自然。很多人都热爱自然。我的观点是，如果人们不仅以一种简单的方式热爱自然（这当然很好——我并不反对这种方式；我自己也这样做），而且如果人们还能以一种更理性的方式去热爱自然，我认为这会成为一股非常强大的力量。这种热爱，如果能够真正理解自然对我们的意义，理解自然对我们的精神、灵魂、乃至整个生命的重要性，并且理解自然在世界各地遭受破坏的当下是多么重要，那么它就会成为一股非常强大的力量。如果这种热爱能够以某种方式被引导，它就会成为一股非常强大的力量，因为即使只有一个人有这样的感受也是好的。我认为，即使只有一个人有这样的热爱，也具有真正的价值。而成千上万个这样的热爱则拥有真正的力量，因为普通民众的情感是政治意愿的萌芽。</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>我写下了我当时的状态——“充满激情”。这也是为什么，这与你母亲的强烈情感联系在一起——你能讲讲这个故事吗？——我们一开始谈到你对自然的热爱，实际上始于你生命早期那段非常艰难的时期，那时她曾一度离开你，后来又回来了，不仅回到了你的生活中，而且在某种程度上也重新融入了她自己；你母亲的故事，以及它如何与你参与的“英国蝴蝶大搜寻”联系起来。</p><p><b>麦卡锡先生：</b>嗯，我和我哥哥——我哥哥约翰比我大一岁——有过一段很多人可能都有过的经历：我七岁，我哥哥约翰八岁的时候，我母亲精神崩溃了，她被送进了精神病院。在那个年代，从精神病院出来的人往往很难回来，但她最终还是回来了。她算是康复了，虽然表面上受到了创伤，但她的内心并没有像很多经历过精神创伤的人那样受到伤害。渐渐地，随着我进入青春期、青少年时期，直到成年，我越来越爱她。我重建了和她的关系。</p><p>但这一切在1982年彻底崩塌了，那年我35岁，我的母亲去世了，享年68岁。令我无比震惊的是，我发现自己竟然无法为她哀悼。就像1954年我7岁时母亲离世时我毫无感觉一样，如今她永远地离开了，我依然感受不到任何悲伤。我不知道该如何面对这一切；那种感觉——失去悲伤，实在是一种非常非常奇怪的体验。</p><p>我渐渐明白了事情的真相。原来，七岁那年母亲离家出走时，我恨她。我恨她，因为她没有跟我们道别，什么告别的话都没说；她就这么走了，把我一个人丢下。虽然我的内心不允许我承认这一点，所以我的恨意变成了冷漠。同样地，当她永远离开，当她去世时，同样的感觉再次涌上心头。我恨她，因为她又一次离开了。我恨我的母亲，因为她死了。这些都是你内心深处纠缠不清的碎片，而心理治疗——尽管它饱受争议，但有时确实能帮助你理清思绪，就我而言，它确实做到了。因此，我非常高兴能够重新找回对母亲的感情，并理解我那看似混乱的童年究竟发生了什么。</p><p>但我却无从纪念这件事。我没有办法纪念我生命中这件意义重大的事。我们都喜欢赋予事物意义，不是吗？所以我们才举行各种仪式。我们有洗礼仪式；最重要的是，我们有结婚仪式；我们还有葬礼仪式。我们不会让人们就这样被埋葬或火化。我们想要某种庄严感，某种意义的赋予。但我却没有这样的仪式。</p><p>但最终，我还是遇到了一个契机。那是在我带孩子们去看望母亲墓地的时候。我们站在墓旁，我以为是一片枯叶的东西随风飘来——那是三月的一个日子——它落在了母亲的墓碑上，展开翅膀后，我才发现原来是一只孔雀蝶。那一刻，我萌生了为母亲设立一个纪念的想法。这个纪念计划是：在一个夏天的时间里，去观察英国所有的蝴蝶种类——总共有58种——然后把每一种蝴蝶都献给我的母亲。因为我当时是一家主流全国性报纸的环境版编辑，所以我建议把这个想法作为报纸的夏季专题报道。</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>你成功地让很多人参与到这件事中来。[<em>笑</em>]</p><p><b>麦卡锡先生：</b>嗯，我们建议读者们可以参与这个活动，而且会设立奖品。正如您所说，我们称之为“英国蝴蝶大搜寻”。活动非常成功，也趣味十足，等等等等。但对我来说，活动的意义在于，我想送给母亲一份礼物，以表达对她伟大人生的敬意；而我送给她的，就是我们国家所有的蝴蝶。</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>你当然明白——那里的比喻，对你母亲的爱，以及我们从何而来，以及我们无法感受到失去昆虫、鸟类和花朵的悲伤，这——我不知道；现在听你讲述这个故事，我比读它时更能体会到这一点。</p><p><b>麦卡锡先生：</b>我之前没有——我想，可能是出于本能，但我没有明确地把两者联系起来。既然你提到了，我现在明白了。</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>我曾经和一位佛教老师乔安娜·梅西（Joanna Macy）交谈过。我不知道您是否认识她。她早在“环保主义”这个词出现之前就投身其中了。她也谈到我们“对世界的强烈热爱”，以及当我们所爱的人生病、住院、身患重病、濒临死亡时，我们不会——我们会去陪伴他们，不会说“我很忙”。但是对于我们所热爱的世界，对于昆虫、鸟类和花朵，这种热爱如此强烈，以至于我们选择视而不见。然而，我认为您也提到了这一点，您说，我们与自然界之间存在着怎样的联系？如果我们能够认真对待这种联系，就能让我们持续关注自然，进而疗愈身心，积极参与其中。</p><p>如果我请你从这个宏大的问题——“作为人意味着什么”——开始，结合你的人生经历、你所关心的事情、你所观察到的，你会如何开始谈论你对“作为人意味着什么”的理解是如何演变的？</p><p><b>麦卡锡先生：</b>嗯，我认为，我们生命中最伟大的事莫过于爱另一个人，无论我们是谁，无论对方是谁。但人间的爱是超越一切的。我认为这是我们所能拥有的最伟大的体验，我为任何人拥有并找到爱而感到高兴。如果我能挥动魔杖，我会让每个人都找到爱。我想这就是我会做的。</p><p>但就我们讨论的语境而言，很显然，我们人类来自某个地方。而我们起源的地方，我们诞生的地方，就是自然界。五万代以来，我们都是野生动物。当然，我们现在可能不这么认为了，或许也的确不是。但我们曾经只是众多物种中的一个。我认为——就我个人而言——我无法将我们作为人类的身份与我们诞生的自然界割裂开来。我认为，最终，我们的灵魂仍然有一种渴望，一种想要成为自然界一部分的冲动。我认为这种渴望可能会让你感到惊讶；在某些情况下，它会突然涌现；你可能会突然意识到自己情感的强烈程度。但我确实认为，要成为一个完整的人，就必须认识到自然界是我们起源的地方，它仍然是我们的一部分。没有自然界，我们就无法成为一个完整的人。</p><p> [<em>音乐：Songs of Water 的《Reverence》</em> ]</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>迈克尔·麦卡锡曾长期担任<em>《独立报》</em>环境版编辑和<em>《泰晤士报》</em>环境记者。他现在为<em>《卫报》</em>撰稿。他的著作包括<em>《向布谷鸟说再见》</em>和<em>《飞蛾暴风雪：自然与喜悦》</em> 。</p><p> [<em>音乐：Songs of Water 的《Reverence》</em> ]</p><p><b>工作人员：《</b><em>存在》的主演</em>包括 Chris Heagle、Lily Percy、Mariah Helgeson、Maia Tarrell、Marie Sambilay、Malka Fenyvesi、Erinn Farrell、Lauren Dørdal、Tony Liu、Bethany Iverson、Erin Colasacco、Kristin Lin、Profit Idowu 和 Jeffrey Bissoy。</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>我们优美的主题曲由佐伊·基廷创作并演唱。每集片尾字幕中您听到的最后一个歌声，则来自嘻哈歌手莉佐。</p><p> <em>《On Being》</em>由美国公共媒体制作。我们的资助伙伴包括：</p><p>约翰·邓普顿基金会致力于支持学术研究和公民对话，探讨人类面临的最深刻、最令人困惑的问题：<em>我们是谁？我们为何存在？</em><em>我们将走向何方？</em>欲了解更多信息，请访问 templeton.org。</p><p>费策尔研究所致力于为充满爱的世界奠定精神基础。访问<a href="http://fetzer.org/">fetzer.org</a>了解更多信息。</p><p> Kalliopeia 基金会致力于创造一个以普世精神价值观为基础，关爱我们共同家园的未来。</p><p> Humanity United 致力于在国内和世界各地提升人类尊严。了解更多信息，请访问 humanityunited.org，该组织隶属于奥米迪亚集团。</p><p>亨利·卢斯基金会支持“重新构想公共神学”。</p><p>鱼鹰基金会，致力于促进人们拥有充满力量、健康和充实的生活。</p><p>还有礼来基金会，这是一个总部位于印第安纳波利斯的私人家族基金会，致力于其创始人对宗教、社区发展和教育的兴趣。</p> </div> </div>    <div class="inline-share-icons border-0 mt-0 pt-0"> <div class="d-flex align-items-center"> <span class="me-3 fw-semibold">Share this story:</span> <div> 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But beyond the institutions of man lay the Truth of Divine LOVE that Jesus came to give a face and a name to.</p><p>#ponderthat</p> </div> <div class="comment-actions"> <a href="https://www.dailygood.org/story/2015/-iframe-frameborder-no-height-300-scrolling-no-src-https-w-soundcloud-com-player-url-https-3a-api-soundcloud-com-tracks-438818997-and-color-23ff5500-and-auto-play-false-and-hide-related-false-and-show-comments-true-and-show-user-true-and-show-on-being/?t=showComment&cid=7558#addcomment" class="reply-link" data-cmt-id="7558" data-cmt-author="Patrick Watters"><i class="bi bi-reply"></i> Reply</a> <span class="btn-light post_btn small"></span> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> <script> $(document).ready(function() { // Toggle between short and full comments $('.see_full_cmt').on('click', function(e) { e.preventDefault(); var cid = $(this).attr('cid'); $('.short_cmt' + cid).hide(); $('.long_cmt' + cid).show(); }); $('.see_short_cmt').on('click', function(e) { e.preventDefault(); var cid = $(this).attr('cid'); $('.long_cmt' + cid).hide(); $('.short_cmt' + cid).show(); }); }); </script> </div>   </div> </div> </div> </div> </section> <script src="js/story.js?1aud"></script>  <footer class="footer"> <div class="container"> <div class="row"> <div class="col-md-5 mb-4 mb-md-0"> <h5 class="footer-title">About DailyGood</h5> <p class="footer-about-text"> For over 29 years, DailyGood has been a volunteer-led movement to share uplifting stories that connect hearts and inspire action — all without ads, agendas, or asks. 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