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<div class="story-meta-left"> <div class="story-logo"> <a href="https://www.dailygood.org"> <img alt="DailyGood" src="https://www.karunanews.org/pics/90x90.jpg"> </a> </div> <div class="story-meta-info"> <div class="story-author">By <a href="/author?name=On%20Being">On Being</a></div> <div class="story-details"> <span class="story-date">Feb 22, 2019</span> <span class="story-read-time">1 min read</span> </div> <div class="story-source">Source: <a href="https://onbeing.org/programs/anand-giridharadas-when-the-market-is-our-only-language-nov2018/" target="_blank">onbeing.org</a></div> </div> </div>  <div class="story-meta-right">  <div class="utility-buttons"> <div class="dropdown"> <button class="utility-btn translate-btn dropdown-toggle py-1" type="button" id="translationDropdown" data-bs-toggle="dropdown" aria-expanded="false"> <i class="fa fa-language me-2" aria-hidden="true"></i>Chinese (PRC) </button> <ul class="dropdown-menu dropdown-menu-end translation-dropdown" 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。今天，我们邀请到了记者阿南德·吉里达拉达斯。</p><p>蒂佩特女士：您在2015年阿斯彭的演讲中——正如我所说，您当时也是以一个普通人的身份参与其中，亲身经历了这些问题。您说，“我热爱这个群体”——您指的是这个群体，抱歉，是思想领袖、[<em>笑</em>]活动家、慈善家、商业领袖——“我担心我们所有人，尤其是我自己，可能并不像我们自认为的那样高尚。历史可能不会像我们希望的那样善待我们。我们在当今时代的不公中所扮演的角色，可能不会被后人铭记。”我认为，您还深刻地谈到了——您住在布鲁克林。您曾在麦肯锡工作。您发表过精彩的TED演讲。您通过写书和巡回演讲赚钱。您还谈到，在您的同行和朋友的世界里，人们对谋生和养家糊口所需的条件抱有一些不切实际的幻想，这些幻想至今仍然让人感到困惑。你现在参与的这项调查和这场对话，在你心中激起了哪些你起初可能没有预料到的东西？你是如何应对的？</p><p>吉里达拉达斯先生：这是一个很好的问题。我在致谢部分说过，了解一个问题的最佳途径就是身处其中。作为一名以写作和思考为生的人，我当然无法完全回避这个问题，也从未有过始终置身事外的勇气或胆量。我一直努力好好生活，但正如你所说，要完全回避这个问题非常困难，就像当年佛罗伦萨的画家们很难避开美第奇家族一样。我认为这次调查让我开始思考，即使作为一名作家，我该如何确保自己能够运用有限的权力去质疑体制，提出那些不该问的问题，而不是去做那些只会维护权力的新闻报道、思考或言论。</p><p>但每天我都会思考这个问题：我是否在利用自己的声音说一些不合时宜的话，这些话可能会让我失去朋友或社会资本（用市场术语来说），但也许这些话在某种程度上推动着我们作为一个社会朝着我们需要的方向发展？</p><p>蒂佩特女士：或许我们可以借此机会谈谈新闻界在这件事中的共谋作用。</p><p>吉里达拉达斯先生：那就开始吧。</p><p>蒂佩特女士：因为你我所喜爱的媒体也是这一共识的一部分，也是加强这一共识的一部分。</p><p>吉里达拉达斯先生：我们每个人都是我们共同文化的一部分。问题就在这里。</p><p>蒂佩特女士：是的，但新闻业有一种非常特殊的力量，可以揭露真相——</p><p>吉里达拉达斯先生：没错。但是克丽斯塔，这不仅仅是——我完全同意你的观点，但我必须说，美国所有私立学校现在都面临着同样的问题：它们必须筹集捐赠基金，都以服务社会为使命，要求学生完成50小时的社区服务，但实际上董事会里有18位百万富翁，它们完全效忠于富有的捐赠者。所有大学都在竭力争取下一个3000万美元的科学中心捐款，并将捐赠者的意愿置于教育使命之上。媒体也难辞其咎，它们不加批判地报道人们回馈社会的故事，却从未深入探究他们是如何接受捐赠的。我认为，如果我们不深入探究以金钱为基本价值标准的文化，就无法解决诸如不平等程度或社会愤怒等看似平淡的问题。</p><p>蒂佩特女士：没错。报纸的商业版面比以前大得多，在某种程度上也是报纸上最有趣的版面，因为我们已经接受了——这既反映了这一点，而且，我觉得也是对这一点的巩固——商业才是真正反映生活的真实视角。</p><p>吉里达拉达斯先生：我在报道这本书的过程中，多次听到这样一种观点：如今，商业才是改变现状的关键。每个时代都有不同的方式。或许在某个时期是天主教会，或许是远航到遥远的殖民地。但如今，在我们这个时代，关键在于商业。</p><p>蒂佩特女士：那是核武器；那是武器——40年前的谈判者们。</p><p>吉里达拉达斯先生：没错。你无法选择你所处时代的权力中心。它就是这样，你只能尽力在既定的框架内做出改变。我笔下的许多人物，基本上都对我们这个时代的权力中心持怀疑态度，甚至愤世嫉俗。他们只是认为权力中心在商业领域。所以，他们所能做的，就是尽其所能地通过商业手段来做出改变。</p><p>当然，这掩盖了它之所以如此容易被接受，是因为它提供了一种无需任何牺牲就能实现变革的方式。而牺牲，历来是各种精神或道德传统的核心——有时为了他人的利益，你必须克制自己。这种商业宗教的独特之处在于，它承诺让人摆脱牺牲的观念。它承诺你可以鱼与熊掌兼得，既能赚大钱又能有所作为，既能帮助他人又能帮助自己。多么诱人的幻想啊！我认为，对美国新闻业乃至整个社会都产生深远影响的，或许是安德鲁·卡内基在其著作《财富福音》中提出的“交易”。卡内基的“交易”本质上是：“如果我们捐赠很多，就不要问钱是怎么来的。”我认为，在某种程度上，美国新闻业乃至整个美国文化都默认接受了卡内基的这条规则。</p><p>蒂佩特女士：嗯，我们也从未那样讲述过这个故事。我们只是提及卡内基图书馆以及卡内基图书馆的遗产等等。我们没有讲述完整的故事，也没有反思完整的故事。您在阿斯彭说过，而且在您的书中也反复提到：“我希望我的小儿子拥有我能给予他的一切，即使我知道这正是我所憎恶的不平等的开端。” 当我们谈到我们的孩子以及我们对他们的期望——这涉及到学校的问题——事情就会变得非常复杂。我想知道您是如何继续思考这个问题的。</p><p>吉里达拉达斯先生：在布鲁克林生活，尤其是在这种父母众多的环境中，我一直在思考一件事——这也是我在书中试图做的——那就是让人们用新的视角和语言来思考不平等问题。其中一个框架是，思考当未来降临到我们身上时，谁拥有未来，谁又能收集未来的雨水。我认为未来有很多东西会降临到我们身上。只不过，有些人收集了其中的大部分。</p><p>另一种思考不平等的方式，就是在你对自己孩子的爱和对其他人孩子的爱之间划清界限。从某种程度上来说，爱你的孩子似乎是理所当然的。但实际上，如果你想想是什么让这个社会如此美好，以及我们为了达到今天的成就所取得的成就，你会发现我们对孩子的爱并非无限的。我们都爱自己的孩子。但我们通常都遵守一系列规则，这些规则既限制了我们对自己孩子的付出，也确保我们善待其他人的孩子。这意味着要纳税。你纳税是因为我们明白你不可能把所有的钱都给你的孩子。我们必须照顾到所有人。我们维持着公共机构、制度、福利和各种项目，这些我们自己可能用不到，我们的孩子也可能用不到，但我们认为它们应该是制度的一部分，应该让其他人的孩子也能享受到。</p><p>我认为，要理解美国目前的现状，我们可以这样理解：我们对自己孩子的爱远远超过了对别人孩子的关心。无论是我自己的孩子，还是你和你的孩子，没有人能剥夺你对孩子的爱。但我认为，一个健康社会的关键在于：如何划定界限，才能让你的心中不仅有自己孩子的位置，也有所有人的孩子的位置？</p><p>蒂佩特女士：这件事最讽刺的地方在于，它恰恰反映了我们如今在文化和政治上的混乱局面，那就是你所描述的这种不公和虚伪，其最严重的后果落在了那些连你刚才说的那些话都难以理解的人身上——那些只想确保孩子有饭吃的人，他们根本就没必要去思考这些问题。你非常明确地指出，这种现象，这种共识，绝对是左派和右派之间的问题，无论“右派”究竟意味着什么。但是，你正在进行的这场对话，它是否跨越了——我讨厌这种划分现实的方式，虽然在某种程度上，这种划分方式更宽松，但这就是我们目前所处的现状——这种红蓝之分，这种城乡之分？</p><p>吉里达拉达斯先生：我想根据我的经验告诉你一些我觉得非常令人惊讶的事情，至少对我来说是这样。我花了三年时间写这本书，期间走遍了全国各地，遇到了形形色色的人，无论是在出租车上、餐厅里还是其他任何地方——你都会遇到一些人，他们会问你是做什么的。“你是做什么的？”每当我回答“我是个作家，我在写一本书。”“你的书是什么？”——如果话题发展到那一步，我发现，当我说“我正在写一本关于那些声称自己在改变世界，但实际上却在巩固自身财富和权力的有钱有势的人的书”时，我发现，生活在内陆地区、美国腹地的人们，比纽约和旧金山的人们更快、更容易理解这一点。而那些生活在“保守”地区的人们——他们并不觉得这是左翼的论调。我认为这与他们过去三四十年的经历产生了强烈的共鸣。事实上，我认为有高达60%、70%甚至80%的美国人，以某种形式认同，这个国家需要变革性的改革，它现在不是微调的时候，也不是调整的时候。</p><p>现在，对于变革性改革的具体内容，显然存在巨大的分歧，而且人们的诉求也往往截然相反。但我仍然认为，我们能够就深层次的系统性改革达成共识，这一点意义重大。三四十年来，我们一直秉持着这样一种观念：私人领域发生的种种变化——比如千花盛开、公司发展壮大，以及各种小的举措——这种渐进式的社会改善方式就能拯救我们。而我认为，我们现在正处于一个变革的成熟阶段，就像一百年前的第一个镀金时代一样。那时社会存在着巨大的不平等，涌现出许多伟大的新技术，许多人流离失所，社会充满愤怒，慈善事业蓬勃发展。这一切最终促成了一个改革的时代。我认为，美国社会也正迎来一个新时代的改革，我们需要探讨一些基本问题，例如：工作与医疗保健之间的关系是什么？在零工经济和iPhone时代，我们该如何实现社会流动？作为企业和员工，我们与地域的关系是什么？这些都是一些重大问题，在某种程度上，它们几乎关乎经济和社会的深层精神层面。</p><p>我一直强调的一点是，虽然我个人非常希望看到唐纳德·特朗普下台，但我认为特朗普的下台应该标志着一个更大变革的终结，那就是对金钱的崇拜的终结，对亿万富翁救世主的信仰的终结，以及对制造问题的人最擅长解决问题的信任的终结。而特朗普的下台实际上可能是一个时代的火花，一个让我们能够再次通过从根源上进行深刻改革，为所有人共同解决问题的时代的开端。</p><p> [<em>音乐：“Happy Symmetry”，由 Robin Kelly、Ruth Barrett 和 Bella Saer 创作</em>]</p><p>蒂佩特女士：阿南德·吉里达拉达斯曾任<em>《纽约时报》</em>驻外记者和专栏作家，现任纽约大学亚瑟·L·卡特新闻学院访问学者。他的著作包括<em>《印度来电》</em> 、 <em>《真正的美国人》</em>和<em>《赢家通吃：精英改变世界的骗局》</em> 。</p><p>工作人员： <em>On Being 的成员</em>包括 Chris Heagle、Lily Percy、Mariah Helgeson、Maia Tarrell、Marie Sambilay、Erinn Farrell、Laurén Dørdal、Tony Liu、Bethany Iverson、Erin Colasacco、Kristin Lin、Profit Idowu、Casper ter Kuile、Angie Thurston、Sue Phillips、Eddie Gonzalez、Lilian Vo、Lucas Johnson、Damon Lee、Suzette Burley 和 Katie Gordon。</p><p> [<em>音乐：Huma-Huma 的《2025》</em> ]</p><p>蒂佩特女士：我们优美的主题音乐由佐伊·基廷创作并演唱。每集片尾字幕中最后出现的歌声则来自嘻哈歌手莉佐。</p><p> <em>《On Being》</em>由美国公共媒体制作。我们的资助伙伴包括：</p><p>乔治家族基金会支持公民对话项目。</p><p>费策尔研究所致力于为充满爱的世界奠定精神基础。访问<a href="http://fetzer.org/">fetzer.org</a>了解更多信息。</p><p> Kalliopeia 基金会致力于创造一个以普世精神价值观为基础，关爱我们共同家园的未来。</p><p> Humanity United 致力于在国内和世界各地提升人类尊严。了解更多信息，请访问 humanityunited.org，该组织隶属于奥米迪亚集团。</p><p>亨利·卢斯基金会支持“重新构想公共神学”。</p><p>鱼鹰基金会——致力于促进人们拥有充满力量、健康和充实的生活。</p><p>还有礼来基金会，这是一个总部位于印第安纳波利斯的私人家族基金会，致力于其创始人对宗教、社区发展和教育的兴趣。</p> </div> </div>    <div class="inline-share-icons border-0 mt-0 pt-0"> <div class="d-flex align-items-center"> <span class="me-3 fw-semibold">Share this story:</span> <div> <a href="http://www.facebook.com/sharer.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailygood.org%2Fstory%2F2198%2Fwhen-the-market-is-our-only-language-on-being%2F" target="_blank" class="share-icon" aria-label="Share on Facebook"> <i class="fab fa-facebook-f"></i> </a> <a 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href="https://www.dailygood.org/story/2198/-em-iframe-frameborder-no-height-394-scrolling-no-src-https-w-soundcloud-com-player-url-https-3a-api-soundcloud-com-playlists-644547558-and-color-23ff5500-and-auto-play-false-and-hide-related-false-and-show-comments-true-and-show-user-true-and-am-on-being/?t=showComment&cid=8009" class="ms-auto link-icon text-muted"><i class='fa fa-link'></i></a> </div> <div class="comment-content"> <p>Whew, thank you for the courage to speak about an ugly truth that so many are refusing to address: the depth of taking covered up by corporate philanthropy. This is important discussion and I thank you for jumping off points more eloquently stated than I could have created. Just shared with a social entrepreneur who is in a position of power and speaks at Nexus Summit, interested to see if he takes it there.</p> </div> <div class="comment-actions"> <a href="https://www.dailygood.org/story/2198/-em-iframe-frameborder-no-height-394-scrolling-no-src-https-w-soundcloud-com-player-url-https-3a-api-soundcloud-com-playlists-644547558-and-color-23ff5500-and-auto-play-false-and-hide-related-false-and-show-comments-true-and-show-user-true-and-am-on-being/?t=showComment&cid=8009#addcomment" class="reply-link" data-cmt-id="8009" data-cmt-author="Kristin Pedemonti"><i class="bi bi-reply"></i> Reply</a> <span class="btn-light post_btn small"></span> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> <script> $(document).ready(function() { // Toggle between short and full comments $('.see_full_cmt').on('click', function(e) { e.preventDefault(); var cid = $(this).attr('cid'); $('.short_cmt' + cid).hide(); $('.long_cmt' + cid).show(); }); $('.see_short_cmt').on('click', function(e) { e.preventDefault(); var cid = $(this).attr('cid'); $('.long_cmt' + cid).hide(); $('.short_cmt' + cid).show(); }); }); </script> </div>   </div> </div> </div> </div> </section> <script src="js/story.js?2cue"></script>  <footer class="footer"> <div class="container"> <div class="row"> <div class="col-md-5 mb-4 mb-md-0"> <h5 class="footer-title">About DailyGood</h5> <p class="footer-about-text"> For over 29 years, DailyGood has been a volunteer-led movement to share uplifting stories that connect hearts and inspire action — all without ads, agendas, or asks. 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