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<div class="story-meta-left"> <div class="story-logo"> <a href="https://www.dailygood.org"> <img alt="DailyGood" src="https://www.karunanews.org/pics/90x90.jpg"> </a> </div> <div class="story-meta-info"> <div class="story-author">By <a href="/author?name=On%20Being">On Being</a></div> <div class="story-details"> <span class="story-date">Dec 18, 2019</span> <span class="story-read-time">1 min read</span> </div> <div class="story-source">Source: <a href="https://onbeing.org/programs/esther-perel-the-erotic-is-an-antidote-to-death/#transcript" target="_blank">onbeing.org</a></div> </div> </div>  <div class="story-meta-right">  <div class="utility-buttons"> <div class="dropdown"> <button class="utility-btn translate-btn dropdown-toggle py-1" type="button" id="translationDropdown" data-bs-toggle="dropdown" aria-expanded="false"> <i class="fa fa-language me-2" aria-hidden="true"></i>Chinese (PRC) </button> <ul class="dropdown-menu dropdown-menu-end translation-dropdown" 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target="_blank" class="share-icon d-none d-sm-inline-flex" aria-label="Share on WhatsApp"> <i class="fab fa-whatsapp"></i> </a> </div> </div> </div>  <div class="story-content" id="dg_story"> <div class="dark-link perm_post"> 蒂佩特：是的——没有什么比糟糕的婚姻更孤独的了，对吧？</p><p><b>佩雷尔女士：</b>没有什么比身处曾经让你感到不再孤独的人身边时，却依然感到孤独更甚的了。我还要补充一点。这种孤独我们都懂。而我们不太了解的是，身处一段婚姻之中，即便你被爱着，即便你是被珍视的伴侣，你依然像个饥渴的爱人。</p><p>这是一种性孤独，你知道自己被爱着，但你已经多年没有感受到被需要的感觉了。</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>而您——您教导的其中一点是，激情会时而高涨时而消退，但它也可以重新燃起。</p><p><b>佩雷尔女士：</b>这种想法是，激情就像月亮，时隐时现。[<em>笑</em>] 认为人们会永远处于激情状态——不，当然不会。那样的话，谁还会去上班呢？</p><p>但人们并不想体验激情，他们想体验的是一种鲜活的生命力。而当他们越轨时，他们所描述的也正是这种鲜活的生命力。那么，这种鲜活的生命力是什么呢？它是希望，它是可能性，它是自由。</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>您曾说过，您认为人际关系的质量决定了我们生活的质量，我也深信这一点。有人评价您的播客节目《<em>我们该从何开始？》</em>说，它是一项公益服务。所以我想花几分钟时间——也许有点牵强——谈谈我的看法，但我感觉您所传授的知识和理念，与我们的生活息息相关。</p><p>我一直在思考一个论点，也和一些人讨论过，那就是我想让我们真正思考这种情欲能量、这种活力以及爱的实际运作方式，而不是浪漫的理想化——我们在亲密关系中其实拥有很高的智慧。我指的不仅仅是伴侣关系，也包括我们与家人、朋友以及我们所爱的人之间的关系。我们不会把爱与相似和和谐混为一谈。我觉得我们——对我来说，现在公共生活中一个与你研究的伴侣关系问题非常接近的问题是：我们还能重新燃起对彼此的兴趣吗？</p><p>你有没有想过，将你所了解的关于爱情和情欲智慧的运作方式运用到共同生活中？</p><p><b>佩雷尔女士：</b>是的。我该怎么说呢？</p><p>很久以前，埃里希·弗洛姆其实是一位颇具远见的思想家。他生活在20世纪50年代。但他敏锐地意识到，我们往往认为爱情很容易，难的是找到合适的人；复杂的是爱情对象，而不是爱情本身——当然，他颠覆了这种观念：爱情是一种行动，它不是一种永恒的热情状态，而是一种实际的实践——而且这种实践需要不断地重复。</p><p>现在，我又补充了一些——实际上，我觉得我甚至——他说，爱甚至不是自然而然的东西。“相反，它需要自律、专注、耐心、信念，以及克服自恋。它不是一种感觉，而是一种修行。”我更愿意说它是一个动词，因为动词是行动导向的。</p><p>我喜欢这个想法的一点是——而且我还要补充一点——它包含着风险的元素。想要拥有强烈的亲密关系，你必须敢于冒险。而风险就在于，你的伴侣并非会喜欢你的一切。我认为浪漫理想中一个很奇怪的概念就是无条件的爱。它并不存在。根本不存在；事实上，它从来就不存在。爱是有条件的，彻头彻尾的。[<em>笑</em>] 这并不是一个受欢迎的观点。</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>我知道——你这么说，我觉得很令人耳目一新。</p><p><b>佩雷尔女士：</b>我坚持我的观点。这就好比，你做了糟糕的事，我完全没有理由继续爱你。不。某种程度上，我觉得我们对伴侣的要求太低了。很奇怪，我们要求很多我都不懂的东西——对我来说，灵魂伴侣是上帝，而不是另一个人。有些人确实有这种联系，但这样的人太少了。正如我之前所说，对大多数人来说，你选择伴侣，就等于选择了一个故事。你想写什么样的故事？你有足够的自由去选择你想写的故事吗？这是接下来要考虑的问题。要经常写作，并且认真修改。但无论如何，这终究是一个故事。</p><p>所以，在这个故事里，你身上有些特质你的伴侣不会喜欢。所谓“激烈的亲密关系”，就是你会看到有人告诉你，伴侣身上有些东西让他们抓狂，而且这种抓狂一直存在，永远不会改变。“那个，我从不跟他讨论。我们永远不会谈论那个。”</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：（</b><em>笑</em>）对——对。爱的很多方面在于决定哪些事你不谈论，或者现在不谈论，因为你其实是想被倾听的。</p><p><b>佩雷尔女士：</b>没错。所以，你需要找其他人跟你进行这样的对话。这是一种不同的思考方式；对我来说很有效。我说“人际关系的质量决定了我们生活的质量”，是因为我确实认为，我们与他人建立的纽带和联系，比几乎任何其他事物都能带给我们更大的意义感、幸福感和满足感——前提是关系良好，因为情况也可能恰恰相反，对吧？</p><p>现在的问题是，你在人际关系上投入了多少？我发现，很多时候，人们并没有投入。他们口口声声说“我的伴侣是我最好的朋友”，却对伴侣很差劲。他们说“我的朋友”，却已经好几年没见过面、没联系过了。不行，你不能就这么算了。你不能偷懒。你不能对感情漠不关心，不能把所有精力都投入到工作中，然后把剩下的事情带回家——诸如此类。</p><p>或者，我最近一直在琢磨一个问题，我刚在悉尼问过。我说：“你们有多少人晚上睡觉前最后摸的东西是手机？好，站起来。你们有多少人早上醒来第一件事摸的也是手机？请站起来。你们又有多少人在做这些事的时候，身边其实还躺着另一个人？”顺便说一句，这就是所谓的“模糊损失”。我当时就想，真的吗？真的吗？</p><p>所以，这就是我目前想探讨的问题；有趣的是，我们对人际关系健康关注得不够。我们没有把它与心理健康联系起来，也没有把它与整体身体健康联系起来。如果我们想更深入地探讨这个问题，我们当然也没有把它与社会健康联系起来。问题不在于自由，也不在于我们拥有选择权，而是自由和选择权始终与责任和义务密不可分。</p><p>结果就是，那些谈论自由的人很少谈及问责，而那些谈论问责的人又很少谈及自由。因此，整个局面两极分化，而非融合。政治上如此，心理领域亦如此。这种情况一直存在。</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>而那种力量，那种想象力的生命力，在所有这些非此即彼的选择中也同样缺失。</p><p><b>佩雷尔女士：</b>是的，因为我认为我们当下的一大损失就是某种程度上丧失了直觉。如今的知识和信息更加依赖数据，更加系统化，力求理性，但这却剥夺了我们感知事物、参与互动、洞察并接纳矛盾的能力。我认为，直觉——我们想象力的伟大产物——是一种不带评判地去评估他人的方式，它并非理性，而是由这个人对我们而言的意义所驱动。</p><p>这种知识如今并不流行——至少在西方是如此。但我认为这是人们在人际关系中必须具备的基本知识，因为如果你缺乏这种知识，那么你最终只能处理界限、同意、规则之类的东西，而无法真正享受其中，因为归根结底，人际关系的本质就是享受其中。</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>我们又开始玩游戏了。[<em>笑</em>]</p><p><b>佩雷尔女士：</b>是的。是的，是的，是的。我认为这至关重要。如果非要我说一个——你一开始说是好奇心？我会说是玩耍。但玩耍和好奇心密不可分。想象力、玩乐精神和好奇心可能是其中最核心的两个要素，它们都与冒险息息相关。冒险是指——或者，我会说，玩耍是指冒险带来乐趣。但当你身处危险、焦虑或紧张的环境中时，你无法玩耍。所以你必须感到安全才能玩耍；但如果你不玩耍，你就无法体验到情欲。</p><p> [<em>音乐：Blue Dot Sessions 的《Bouncing》</em> ]</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>我是克丽斯塔·蒂佩特，这里是<em>《论存在》</em> 。今天我们邀请到的是心理治疗师埃丝特·佩雷尔。</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>我们的谈话即将结束，您又回到了这一点——这种情欲智慧是什么，这种生命力是什么，它在一段关系中如此重要，实际上，它在生命本身中也如此重要。我想问您，我们现在生活在一个人们寿命很长、人生经历丰富多彩的世界里，这不仅仅是找到灵魂伴侣并与之幸福地生活在一起的理想行不通。即使你找到了灵魂伴侣，你可能结婚40年，然后又要独自生活20或30年。</p><p>随着年龄的增长，我越来越觉得生活中有很多种爱的形式，其中最重要的是享受这些爱——我的友谊——因为有些爱的能量，比如“情欲”这个词，虽然与性紧密相连，但我也能感受到爱在公共场合、在公民生活中可以呈现出的样子。</p><p><b>佩雷尔女士：</b>但是你知道，当人们投身革命运动时，他们会感到情欲涌动。</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>是的，是的！您说得太对了。</p><p><b>佩雷尔女士：</b>我认为理解这一点非常重要：如果将情色狭义地理解为纯粹的性含义，那就大大简化了这个词的真正意义。情色是一种越轨的力量，它关乎打破规则。这才是情色的真谛，因为它能带你超越现实的界限和生活的局限。</p><p>如果没有它，我们就无法生存。它是如此根本。一旦它被简单地归类为性，它就失去了原本的丰富内涵和意义，也失去了人们需要它的原因。没错，你渴望爱情——那种认为浪漫关系是人生的终极目标，是人们能够感受到完全自我实现和成为最好的自己的方式——不。有时，人们最好的自己并不在浪漫关系中，而是在与员工、受指导者或朋友的关系中。</p><p>尤其是在社群结构无法支撑我们生存的当下，对我们许多人来说，正是这些多元的关系安排才真正成为维系关系的基础。如果你对人际关系进行等级划分，比如称一些人为“单身”，一些人为“有伴侣”，那么今天有伴侣的人明天可能就不是了，甚至昨天可能也不是。而今天单身的人明天也可能就有了伴侣。在这种时候，这种区分还有什么意义呢？它已经不再适用。</p><p>我们经历着形形色色的关系，而且——我在一次TED演讲的结尾说过这样一句话——随着时间的推移，这句话也逐渐有了更深层的含义，也引起了其他人的思考。我当时说：“如今，我们很多人一生中至少会经历两到三次婚姻或稳定的恋爱关系。有些人甚至会和同一个人维持这些关系。而那些能和同一个人维持关系的人——这体现了情欲智慧，”因为他们能够根据不同的情况调整自己，并与彼此建立新的关系模式。如果你们无法在彼此身上找到这种平衡，你们就会去别的地方寻找。</p><p>但你必须这么做，否则你会死。你需要改变才能继续活下去。这其中蕴含着新鲜感，但新鲜感并非指新的姿势；这就是为什么人们最终会认为你在谈论性爱姿势——并非如此。新鲜感指的是你在这个世界上的全新体验，以及你与伴侣之间关系的全新体验（如果你指的是伴侣的话）。但如果没有伴侣，它指的是你在这个世界上的全新体验，这需要承担风险，并积极地与未知事物互动，正如瑞秋·博茨曼（Rachel Botsman）所说的那样。[<em>编者注：佩雷尔女士（Ms. Perel）的表述是转述；瑞秋·博茨曼（Rachel Botsman）写的是“与未知事物建立自信的关系”</em> 。]</p><p>当人们这样做时，会感受到一种使命感，一种活力；一种喜悦；一种传承感；年龄不再是问题。这里没有时间意义上的年龄，因为你与生命相连。</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>是的，是的。我确实想问您这个问题，我不会问每个人这个问题，因为它意义重大。但鉴于您的人生经历、您所关心和看到的一切，您会如何着手回答“您学到了什么关于人性的意义”这个问题呢？</p><p><b>佩雷尔女士：</b>我认为，关于“人性”的本质——有很多种回答方式，但我首先想到的是，我们来到这个世界时，既渴望联结和保护，也渴望自由。从出生那一刻起，我们就一直在这两种需求之间摇摆不定——“我”是什么？“我们”又是什么？如今人们常说，“我需要先完善自己；我需要先感觉良好；我需要先解决自身的问题，才能与他人相处”，我觉得这种想法很奇怪。你知道你是谁，但你会在与他人相处的过程中发现真正的自己。</p><p>所以，这种你我之间、我与你之间永无休止的博弈，正是人性的核心。当我的行为伤害了你时，我有什么权利为自己做这些事？我能为自己索取多少，而不去给予你？我能为你付出多少，直到我感觉自己对自己的付出还不够？我该如何确保不失去你，却在这个过程中失去自己？或者，我该如何紧紧抓住自己，却在这个过程中失去你？对我而言，这种张力，这种博弈，正是人性的核心——自由与责任，这或许也是存在主义思想的核心所在。</p><p> [<em>音乐：Mooncake 的《Turquoise》</em> ]</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>埃丝特·佩雷尔目前仍在纽约从事私人夫妻和家庭治疗工作。她是播客节目《<em>我们应该从哪里开始？》</em>的执行制片人和主持人，也是两场TED演讲和两本书的作者： <em>《被囚禁的性爱：解锁情欲智慧》</em>和<em>《婚外情：重新思考不忠》</em> 。</p><p><b>工作人员：</b> On Being Project 的成员包括 Chris Heagle、Lily Percy、Maia Tarrell、Marie Sambilay、Erinn Farrell、Laurén Dørdal、Tony Liu、Bethany Iverson、Erin Colasacco、Kristin Lin、Profit Idowu、Eddie Gonzalez、Lilian Vo、Lucas Johnson、Damon Lee、Suzette Burley、Katie Gordon、Zack Rose、Serri Graslie 和 Nicole Finn。</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b> “存在之道”项目位于达科他保留地。我们优美的主题音乐由佐伊·基廷创作并演唱。节目结尾您听到的最后一个歌声来自卡梅伦·金霍恩。</p><p> <em>《On Being》</em>是“On Being Project”独立制作的节目，由PRX发行给公共广播电台。我曾在美国公共媒体公司（American Public Media）制作过这档节目。</p><p>我们的资助伙伴包括：</p><p>费策尔研究所致力于为充满爱的世界奠定精神基础。访问<a href="http://fetzer.org/">fetzer.org</a>了解更多信息。</p><p> Kalliopeia 基金会致力于创造一个以普世精神价值观为基础，关爱我们共同家园的未来。</p><p> Humanity United 致力于在国内和世界各地提升人类尊严。了解更多信息，请访问<a href="http://humanityunited.org/">humanityunited.org</a> ，该组织隶属于奥米迪亚集团。</p><p>鱼鹰基金会——致力于促进人们拥有充满力量、健康和充实的生活。</p><p>还有礼来基金会，这是一个总部位于印第安纳波利斯的私人家族基金会，致力于其创始人对宗教、社区发展和教育的兴趣。</p> </div> </div>    <div class="inline-share-icons border-0 mt-0 pt-0"> <div class="d-flex align-items-center"> <span class="me-3 fw-semibold">Share this story:</span> <div> <a 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