MS. SHLAIN: Yeah. And I’m doing what everyone else is doing the other times. I’m not like some puritan or something. I feel so creative on Sunday morning. It’s crazy. I mean, I — oh, wait. This is the other thing that happens that really I find fascinating — when you’re turning off the technology, you are slowing down time. You’re slowing down your mind. And most people that I run into — I was just at Sundance, and said, “How are you doing?” “Oh, I’m so busy.” That’s everybody’s response. I don’t want that to be your response. Tell me something interesting. [laughs]
But everyone feels overwhelmed. So, this amazing thing happens on Friday nights and Saturday morning. My husband and I — Ken and I still joke. We’ll just be like, “What time is it now? Oh, my gosh, it’s only eight in the morning. We’ve done four things!” Time just goes ridiculously slow when your phone is off.
MS. TIPPETT: Yeah. So, to the addictive feeling of our relationship with our technology, would you say a little bit about what we’re learning about — the neurotransmitters, like the oxytocin and the dopamine and how those things — and also not necessarily in ways that seem terrible, but what’s released in our brains...
MS. SHLAIN: Oh, yeah.
MS. TIPPETT: ...as we interact with these devices.
MS. SHLAIN: It’s very similar to — I’m not proud of this, but in rebellion in my 20s, I smoked. And I know what that feels like. And sometimes I’d have a cigarette in my mouth and want another cigarette. And I would be blown away that that thought could happen. [laughs] And when you’re on an email and you want to check for a new email, I think that’s the same thing. But yeah, dopamine — but the good news is that the — and dopamine, it’s also things that make you feel good, things that make you want more, like food, or sex, or there’s all of these things that you can’t be satiated with.
And then on the flipside, with oxytocin — this is what I love — oxytocin is the love hormone. When women are breastfeeding, they get flooded with oxytocin. Or it makes you feel trusting. And it makes you want to collaborate. And they’ve shown that when you get a text or an email from someone you love, or someone you feel connected to, you get a rush of oxytocin.
So, there’s a part of me that thinks that the reason why there’s all these collaborative businesses on the rise, whether it’s AirBnB, or Lyft, or all these companies that are growing on the internet that are all based on collaboration, is because we are awash of oxytocin. We are so filled with it that we’re just wanting to collaborate. [laughs]
MS. TIPPETT: Yeah. Now you used that — this language of the “participatory revolution fueled by all that oxytocin pinging around.”
MS. SHLAIN: Yeah. That’s on my most optimistic days. That is what — that’s a beautiful thing. And, of course, not in a Pollyanna way. I know there’s a lot of very bad things happening in the world, and I do think about those. I’ve chosen in my life — I feel like we’re surrounded with such bad frameworks on everything with the news, generally.
I just feel like I can contribute best if I come from a — actually, my husband and I call it “opticism.” [laughs] It’s optimism and skepticism combined and merged. Opticism, because we’re optimistic, but realistic, because we’re — we love history and grounding it in the past. But I really choose to focus on what we can do instead of feeling overwhelmed and drowning in all the problems in the world.
MS. TIPPETT: Well, the other thing I think a lot about is — the internet is a new and very powerful oversized screen for the old human condition. Right? There’s nothing that happens online that doesn’t have an offline corollary.
MS. SHLAIN: No, it’s amplifying everything that we are. And that’s the amazing thing about it.
MS. TIPPETT: You use the word “beauty” a lot when you talk about technology. And I just — I wonder what — how do you — a phrase like that, that language of the “beauty of technology.” What are the connotations that’s filled with for you?
MS. SHLAIN: I think that probably — just as you were saying it, I hadn’t really thought about that, but just growing up with my father writing Art and Physics, that the beauty of math — the poetry of an amazing equation and code and — I mean, I think art is — I think beauty really can be applied to everything. I see art and science the way he taught me to see it, which is that they’re just — one’s images and one’s equations and numbers, but they’re the same — they’re showing us the same ideas, but in different languages. And he goes all throughout history and kind of charts examples of that in that book.
MS. TIPPETT: Your father does?
MS. SHLAIN: Yeah.
MS. TIPPETT: So, in terms of this work of the internet being in its infancy, and how its foundation is us, in fact, and how we are building its foundation. Where do you see this happening? I mean, you’re out there talking about this stuff. Where do you see this hopeful, character-driven foundation being built?
MS. SHLAIN: Well, going back to one point you said that I think about a lot is just things that become self-fulfilling prophecies if we keep saying it. I think that with the internet, I absolutely think about it with the women’s story, that we’re always “not” — we’re not enough of this, we’re not enough — we’re not enough board seats, we’re not enough directing jobs. I never think — it’s such a different way to think about the world as coming from what we’re not, instead of, for me, which is, where are we? Where are we on are the arc of history? And how can we shape it moving forward?
And I think — I’m very excited about the moment of everyone being online, which I think is going to happen in the next five years. Everyone who wants to be, which will be a very large proportion of the population — again, going back to the neuroscience of a child’s brain, that there’s a point in the development of a child’s brain where all the different parts of the brain are connected that they can have their first insight. And extrapolating that out to the internet — we’re, I think, at this point, 60 percent connected. And the moment that we can truly get everyone on the internet connected, imagine what that will be — the insight that will be able to happen when we have that many different perspectives coming together in one network. And I think the challenge is going to be to create enough collaborative tools to make that happen. But that makes me incredibly hopeful.
MS. TIPPETT: What would you say ...
MS. SHLAIN: And I mean, I ultimately ...
MS. TIPPETT: Keep going, yeah.
MS. SHLAIN: Oh, I was just going to say that I believe in humanity. I feel like there’ve been a couple moments where we could have knocked the whole — huge swathes of population away. And we didn’t. And I think, on a really bigger picture, I ultimately believe in humans. And I believe that we’re going to evolve. I think — like anything, with progress, it’s two steps forward, one step back, and there’s always going to be these parts of us that aren’t great, that are horrible, that are violent, that are always going to be there. But I think on a whole, when we get everyone online, I think you’re going to see amazing things happen that we can’t even imagine.
MS. TIPPETT: Would you say that — you cofounded the International Academy of Digital Arts and Sciences, and the Webby Awards. Would you say that that’s a way — that’s a tool or platform for...
MS. SHLAIN: Absolutely.
MS. TIPPETT: ...calling out character and goodness and excellence?
MS. SHLAIN: Yeah. What was so exciting when I founded the Webbys back — a long time ago, it was really about this very young medium, that we wanted to set the standard of excellence, and say this is the best. Just like what you’re saying, if we put it to character, these have the best attributes and strengths on the web right now. Here’s excellence, and now push beyond it next year. And next year it always — you’re constantly raising the bar of what is excellence and what are strengths. And you help evolve something, just like with your — like you were saying earlier, if you’re raising the internet. You’re helping to develop it. It’s funny, now — because they’re called “web developers,” and I just thought of that in a whole different way just now. [laughs]
MS. TIPPETT: [laughs] It’s so true.
MS. SHLAIN: Web developers. We’re all developing it.
MS. TIPPETT: Yeah, well, also — yeah, exactly, and to that point, if you think about — because you do make this connection now. Think about growing up the internet in terms of what are healthy child development techniques. You’re right. It’s wonderful. And just what you said a minute ago about self-fulfilling prophecies. We know if we’re raising a human being in the world, and we’re constantly generalizing about them and their future on the basis of the worst thing they did, this mistake they made.
MS. SHLAIN: Exactly.
MS. TIPPETT: This flaw, this character flaw.
MS. SHLAIN: Thank you. Yes. That’s the news.
MS. TIPPETT: That’s how we ruin them.
MS. SHLAIN: That’s what I find — if we’re just constantly saying the worst of humanity, which is the news, that is what you’re hearing. And if you’re raising a child, just bringing — that would be the worst way to raise a child, instead of — this is what you can become, this is where you need to go, these are examples of excellence, you’re saying the worst. And, yeah, I’m tired of that. What do we want this to be? Let’s think about it together.
[music: “Rain” by Dustin O’Halloran]
MS. TIPPETT: I’m Krista Tippett and this is On Being. Today I’m with internet pioneer and filmmaker Tiffany Shlain.
MS. TIPPETT: I notice you’ve also worked out — I don’t know if this formalized, but something like rules of etiquette for the internet age, I would say, with Sherry Turkle. Can you share a couple of those?
MS. SHLAIN: Yeah, when people write really long emails. Who’s going to read them right now? The hundred-word-or-less email, bullet point, clear subject header. Also, I laugh when you ask to see a photo of one of your friends’ children, and they pull out their phone. And suddenly they get lost in their last year of photos. “Oh, let me show — oh, no, no, no. Let me show you this one. Let me show this one.” And then by the end, you didn’t want to see 20 videos and six photos. You wanted to see how their child had grown, and appreciate their child for a second.
MS. TIPPETT: What was the one about finishing a text, not — if your spouse walks into the room, you ...
MS. SHLAIN: Oh, actually, I try to really not walk into a room talking on the phone. Because that — you don’t realize how much that, for the person that is in the home, when you’re in mid-conversation, it’s not a great way to greet someone.
MS. TIPPETT: Right. But it’s a little thing that — you’re right. We don’t think about the effect we’re having on each other. Or our presence. Our presence.
MS. SHLAIN: That’s what’s so beautiful about the — even in the technology shabbats, everyone turns off their phone, all the screens, and you’re just — you’re very present with each other. I remember when my father died, there was a lot of people at his funeral that I hadn’t met before, but they all came up to me and shared some story. And what most of them said to me in different ways was, your father always made me feel like the most important person in the room. And I feel like today no one makes anyone feel like they’re the most important person in the room.
MS. TIPPETT: Yeah, we have...
MS. SHLAIN: It’s ...
MS. TIPPETT: ...our habits kind of work against that, don’t they?
MS. SHLAIN: Yeah. There are just too many things that are more important that could happen at any moment. And you just — we have to pay attention to the emotional connectedness. And a lot of people worry about the youth, and they’re like, “Oh, the kids, they don’t make eye contact,” and all — I’m, in general, not so worried about the youth. I feel like we’ve gone through so many different technologies that have changed the way we’ve experienced the world. And ultimately, we’re humans, and we need to make eye contact. That — we...
MS. TIPPETT: That they’re not going to stop doing that.
MS. SHLAIN: ...that the mother and child have to make it for a child’s brain to grow. And if you’re in a marriage you have to make eye contact. You have to connect authentically, or else that marriage, it won’t work. And real relationships require deep connection. And again, this goes back to — I believe in humans, I believe we’re in this very transformational period with all this technology, and that we need to evolve and create — whether you want to call them habits or practices that allow for the connectivity while also utilizing this amazing tool of the internet.
MS. TIPPETT: Do you — I think a lot these days about how, even when — my children are now 17 and 22. But when my children were young, the great fear was that television would rot their brains.
MS. SHLAIN: Right.
MS. TIPPETT: And now they are young adults, and as the world has changed in that time, if we are all in the same room, watching the same TV show, that is quality time. Right?
MS. SHLAIN: Yeah, I was just thinking about that when I was at Sundance just — I watched a whole bunch of movies in a big theater with lots of people, which was so delicious and wonderful to just experience all those things with other people. And it’s so much fun to watch that with your family when you really get into a movie or a show together. It’s so wonderful.
But television was the big fear. That was the big fear, which is funny to me now as I hardly — I watched so much television when my parents got divorced. And that became the surrogate family that wasn’t happening during a very difficult time in my family. And watched The Brady Bunch more than I care to share to with you. [laughs]
MS. TIPPETT: [laughs] So, tell me — I wonder, when you think about technology and human connection, I wonder if there are insights into that, aspects of that, that are surprising you right now, that you couldn’t even have known or imagined five years ago, or ten years ago, and what are — are there some things you’ve been learning that feel fresh and kind of take you...
MS. SHLAIN: OK, I...
MS. TIPPETT: ...in the next direction?
MS. SHLAIN: I’ll tell you, there’s one thing I’m kind of wrestling with how I think about it, which is that we recently have a device in our house called the Alexa. And it’s an Amazon speaker that you can verbally say, “What’s the weather?” or “Put on NPR news,” or “Play Nina Simone,” or whatever, and it just does it. And I’ve been thinking a lot about, was it the screen that was bothering me? Because suddenly there’s this verbal — and it’s really intuitive. It really works. You can say anything and it’ll happen.
And it’s in the center in the kitchen, and it’s great if you’re cooking, because you can put multiple timers on it, which I love. Anyway, I’ve been thinking about, OK, so I don’t have a screen, but I’m suddenly interacting with this larger infosphere, and is that too much? Is it — what does that mean? I’m thinking about that a lot. Because I think that’s going to be soon just commonplace, where you’re verbally saying all these things into the ether and responses happen. And how is that going to change things?
MS. TIPPETT: And that it’s only the voice involved.
MS. SHLAIN: Yeah, it’s just the voice. And I think a lot about robotics, obviously, because my husband makes them. And there’s so many concerns over them. And he’s not, again, concerned. He thinks it’s going to be a very collaborative relationship on outsourcing things humans don’t need to do, and humans will still do what, of course, they need to do, which is creative thinking, and empathy, and all of these other things.
So going back to your question of things that have surprised me, I’m always surprised by how powerful — and again, I think this has to do with the tech shabbats. Every week I get re-surprised [laughs] there’s a new look of surprise now — of just this sense of connection with people, with ideas, and then I ultimately feel incredibly connected to the people that I meet online, on Twitter — mostly on Twitter, actually. I feel most exposed to new, fresh ideas I wouldn’t have interfaced with. I heard this funny thing that Facebook is who you went to school with and Twitter’s who you wish you went to school with. Which I think embodies the way I think about the technology, but I don’t think I’m getting at the larger question about the bigger surprise, which — or...
MS. TIPPETT: No. No, that’s all good. I made fun of Twitter for such a long time having not tried it. And it’s so counterintuitive in a way that something...
MS. SHLAIN: It is, yeah.
MS. TIPPETT: ...that — right? That forces — which was what I made fun of — that forces anything into that many characters, I think has such — it has — obviously, it’s not always poetic and profound, but it has this incredible capacity for poetry and...
MS. SHLAIN: It really...
MS. TIPPETT: ...profundity and connection.
MS. SHLAIN: Yeah. I feel it’s — I’m interfacing with just so many ideas. And it’s exciting — it, actually, it’s going back to almost that default mode network where the unusual connections that I look down and I see some idea, and I was just thinking about something else, and then that just joined with that idea, and some new idea will happen. And I’m always like, oh, that was — that’s fantastic. So I love that. I love that. The idea generation that comes from that.
MS. TIPPETT: How do you think — the passions you’ve lived into, which have so much to do with technology, and our lives with technology, and connection — how do you think all of that has flown in and shaped your sense of what it means to be human? How would you start to talk about that? It’s a huge question, but how would you — where would you start to talk about that?
MS. SHLAIN: I feel, through the technology in some ways, it’s almost in the way that science has given an underpinning to ideas that have been around for a long time. And in a lot of ways, the technology connecting all of us, and the tactility of the technology, is creating this kind of underpinning of our yearning for this larger connecting to something larger than ourselves. Does that make sense?
MS. TIPPETT: Yeah, it’s great. Have you ever heard of Teilhard de Chardin? Do you know his...
MS. SHLAIN: Of course. Of course. I ...
MS. TIPPETT: In a way, the idea of spiritual evolution, and the idea — his perception through working with a long view of time, right, but with how far humanity had come physiologically through evolution. And his sense that the noos — that this realm of idea, human creativity and ideas and thought would kind of overlay the biosphere, and would transform the biosphere, would transform reality. To me, that — it’s one way to also talk about what you’re proposing. And I think you have a long view of time, as well, that we should be aiming for, in very practical ways in terms of how we live our every day.
MS. SHLAIN: Yes. It’s all the little moments that are tapping into this bigger interdependent network. How we tap into it are the ways that we can infuse the sense of character in how we’re growing and evolving the internet. And this larger interdependent system that we’re creating, that’s showing us what already is there so deeply.
[music: “Fort” by GoGo Penguin]
Tiffany Shlain is the founder of the Webby Awards and a co-founder of the International Academy of Digital Arts and Sciences. She has directed and co-written 28 films, some with accompanying books, including “The Science of Character,” “Brain Power: From Neurons to Networks,” and the feature-length documentary Connected: An Autoblogography about Love, Death, and Technology.
You might not know that On Being is incubating a community engagement initiative called Your Audio Selfie. At youraudioselfie.org you can hear collections of audio snapshots in response to a single, artfully worded question. This week, we’re featuring our series “What’s in a Name?” — reflections on who we are and what we are called. All this and more at youraudioselfie.org.
On Being is Trent Gilliss, Chris Heagle, Lily Percy, Mariah Helgeson, Maia Tarrell, Annie Parsons, Marie Sambilay, Tess Montgomery, Aseel Zahran, Bethanie Kloecker, and Selena Carlson.
Our major funding partners are:
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Kalliopeia Foundation, contributing to organizations that weave reverence, reciprocity, and resilience into the fabric of modern life.
The Henry Luce Foundation, in support of Public Theology Reimagined.
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