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现在真正吸引你的是——你用的这个词组是“结束的神话”。事实上，我不知道这个词是什么时候进入我们词汇的——也许你能谈谈这个——但这个词确实误导了我们。</p><p>老板女士：我相信这一点。不过，我觉得“了结”这个词用在房地产和商业交易中完全没问题，所以我不想妖魔化“了结”这个词。但在人际关系中，“了结”却是个糟糕的词。一旦你对某人产生了依恋，爱他们，关心他们——即使他们去世了，你仍然会关心他们。这不一样，这是另一个层面。但你无法就此断绝联系。看看我家附近那条街——有一家泰国餐馆，每天都会在橱窗里摆放一盘新鲜的食物，供奉他们的祖先。他们这样做病态吗？不。这是一种文化习俗，用来缅怀祖先。不知为何，在我们的社会里，我们认定，一旦有人去世，就必须彻底结束这段关系。但我们现在知道，人们会带着悲伤生活。他们不必非得放下悲伤。这完全可以理解。我说的不是执念，只是缅怀。</p><p>蒂佩特女士：我想读一下您在<em>《卫报》</em>上写的一篇文章。我想这篇文章的起因可能是海啸，也可能是日本地震。</p><p>老板娘：我想是马来西亚航空公司的飞机。</p><p>蒂佩特女士：是的，马来西亚航空公司。但你当时写的是你在9/11事件中学到的一些东西。你写道：“一年后，一位纽约记者在报道9/11周年纪念日时问我，为什么我认为纽约人还没有从中走出来。我的回答是：‘因为你们正试图走出来。’矛盾的是，正如T·S·艾略特所说，我们对失踪亲人的未知，反而成了我们所知道的一切。另一位诗人约翰·济慈在给一位年轻诗人的信中建议他培养一种与未解之谜共存的能力。济慈称之为‘消极能力’，而这正是与失踪亲人共存所需要的。这也是我们其他人停止给这些家庭施加压力，让他们寻求真相的方式。”</p><p>老板女士：是的。我们必须停止强迫人们放下这件事。实际上，这样做很残忍。我曾批评新闻媒体对“了结”的渴望。他们喜欢用“了结”这个词。但我必须说，有一次，我在听CNN的时候，安德森·库珀叫停了其他记者，说“了结”是个不好的词。根本没有所谓的“了结”。我非常欣赏他这一点。我知道从他的个人经历中，他了解失去的滋味，也明白没有所谓的“了结”。他是我听过的唯一一位在工作中如此解释这一点的记者。我认为我们其他人也应该在这方面做得更好。根本没有所谓的“了结”。我们必须接受失去，无论它是清晰的还是模糊的。这没什么不好。看到那些正在经历痛苦的人，我们只需要简单地说一句“我很抱歉”。真的，你不需要说更多。</p><p> [<em>音乐：“To Be Buried and Discovered Again”，演唱者：The End of the Ocean</em> ]</p><p>蒂佩特女士：我是克丽斯塔·蒂佩特，这里是<em>《论存在》</em> 。今天，我邀请到了模糊性丧失专家和家庭治疗师宝琳·博斯。</p><p>蒂佩特女士：我记得在笔记里找过——找到了，就是这句话：当失去的意义仍然模糊不清时，“改变的唯一窗口”就在于“认知”。而人类的认知，其后果是真实存在的。</p><p>老板女士：是的。当遭遇难以界定的损失时，无论是压力事件还是其他任何事件，个人或整个家庭对此的感受都会大相径庭，即使在同一个社区也是如此，更不用说全球各地、不同文化背景了。因此，为了更好地帮助这些家庭，我们首先必须弄清楚他们是如何看待这件事的。归根结底，我们又回到了意义的问题上。这件事对你来说意味着什么？</p><p>事实上，这正是我问的第一个问题：“这对你来说意味着什么？”因为在了解这件事对他们的意义之前，我根本不知道该如何介入。如果我问“这对你来说意味着什么？”，他们可能会说：“这是上帝的惩罚”，或者“这是我爱人的惩罚。他一直都在纠缠我”，诸如此类。这样我就知道了他们的观点，并可以据此采取下一步行动。或者他们可能会说：“我总是失败，这就是这件事的意义。”那么你就知道该如何着手了。又或者有人会说：“这是另一个挑战，但我认为我可以应对。”这就是另一种含义。就像我之前讲的闹钟的故事一样，认知非常重要，它决定了你如何才能获得韧性和力量。</p><p>蒂佩特女士：我没找到您对此进行过详尽论述的文章，但您提到过您经历过离婚。您和孩子的父亲离婚了，而离婚带来的损失是难以言喻的。这确实让这件事变得很现实，因为这种经历非常普遍。我必须说，我理解您的感受，但我也想请您解释一下，为什么离婚是一种难以言喻的损失。</p><p>老板女士：嗯，显然，它不像我们谈论的那些灾难那样戏剧性，但它每天都在发生。也就是说，你离开了某人，离婚证上显示你失去了某人，但他们仍然在你身边。所以他们在这里，但又不在你身边。他们既存在又不存在。当你们共同抚养孩子时，这种情况尤其如此。所以，离婚是一种人际关系的破裂，但并未真正消失。</p><p>我在威斯康星大学读书的时候，我的导师，一位名叫卡尔·惠特克的精神科医生，对我们说：“根本没有离婚这回事。你永远不可能离婚。”当时，我们对此非常生气。但事实上，他说得对。一旦你与某人建立了某种依恋关系，你就无法彻底切断它。它是你生命的一部分，是你的一部分。就像我说的，如果你和对方共同抚养孩子，你们之间仍然存在身体上的互动。这很复杂，也充满了矛盾。这就是离婚的模糊之处，这就是它的本质。</p><p>蒂佩特女士：那是一种悲痛，一种损失，对吧？即使你想要它，即使它是正确的选择，等等等等。</p><p>老板女士：悲伤依然存在。</p><p>蒂佩特女士：我在思考这个问题，思考采访您这件事的时候，最让我印象深刻的是，这或许是我们另一个可以更友善、做得更好的领域。因为我觉得，当我们谈论离婚，或者得知有人要离婚时，我不确定我们是否像对待失去亲人那样对待它，或者我们是否真正理解并体谅到对方的悲伤。</p><p>老板娘：有时候我道歉反而会弄巧成拙，对方会说“别这样”。这时候我更喜欢问“这对你来说意味着什么？”，这样他们就能透露一些关于他们离婚进展的信息。现在有些人会说“我们俩都很好，只是决定分道扬镳而已。”而有些人则会说“我心都碎了”。所以我觉得问“这对你来说意味着什么？”能让我了解一些情况，然后才能知道接下来该怎么做。</p><p>蒂佩特女士：这和您刚才说的有点类似，您说过根本不存在所谓的“了结”，当你经历失去或悲伤时，它会以某种方式成为你的一部分，这是正常的。您还说过，“将逝去的亲人留在心中，就像在心理上建立一个家庭一样，可以赋予他们丰富的意义，不应该被视为病态。”您和一位同事合著了这篇关于“了结”神话和“了结”问题的论文。她也是精神科医生吗？还是心理学家？</p><p>老板女士：不，是唐娜·卡恩斯。她是一位住在威斯康星州麦迪逊的诗人。</p><p>蒂佩特女士：好的。这说得通。因为她的诗歌——讲述了她的故事。她经历了一种非常典型的、难以言喻的丧失。</p><p>老板女士：是的。吉姆·格雷是一位计算机科学家，图灵奖得主，也是西海岸科技界许多人的导师。他在一个星期天从旧金山湾出海航行，之后就杳无音讯。我与他的家人以及微软合作，最终决定举办一场致敬活动，而不是追悼会。</p><p>吉姆·格雷的妻子名叫唐娜·卡恩斯，她现在回到了威斯康星州，那是她家的故乡。我想，她写了一些很棒的诗，是关于她思念丈夫的。这就是她排解悲伤的方式。</p><p>蒂佩特女士：我想问问您是否愿意读读这篇文章，我记得它是那篇文章的最后一篇。我这里有一篇，标题是《继续前行》，我觉得它恰好捕捉到了您所谈到的那种生活方式——与不确定性共存，让悲伤成为你的一部分，让失去成为失去，让生命充满意义。</p><p>老板女士：唐娜·卡恩斯创作了《继续前行》。</p><p>你继续前行/依然伴我左右，/双眸笼罩在暮色中；/你是/萦绕心头的疑问/在每一天的尽头。/我不禁笑/你依然如此/开放——/在迷失这么多年后/依然陪伴着我。/我把你当作/我自己的/时光机，/当我涂上口红，微笑/然后走向/派对。</p><p>蒂佩特女士：是的。你知道吗，宝琳，我觉得，甚至在你的第一本书<em>《模糊的</em><em>失落</em>》的开头，你就谈到了诗人与心理治疗师之间的关联。你能稍微谈谈这方面吗？这让我非常感兴趣。</p><p>老板娘：是的。那份文件在哪儿来着？我想我得找来看看。</p><p>蒂佩特女士：或许就在这篇文章《结束的神话》里。</p><p>老板女士：我认为就在这里。而且我坚信这一点：“科学发现并非源于方法或魔法，而是源于敞开心扉，倾听内心的情感，并回应直觉。就像诗人一样，研究者和治疗师都需要具备想象真相的能力。他们各自以不同的方式检验真相。诗人吟咏诗句，治疗师尝试策略，研究者检验假设。然而，理论家必须意识到这三者的存在。”</p><p>蒂佩特女士：没错。“就像诗人一样，研究者和治疗师也需要能够想象真相可能是什么。”你是这么说的吗？</p><p>老板女士：是的。我们必须想象真相可能是什么。我知道，通过统计数据和严谨的科学方法，我们可以得出真相或接近真相的结论。但我认为，我们也必须提出正确的研究问题。很多时候，我们并没有做到这一点。所以，直觉和想象力就派上了用场。</p><p>蒂佩特女士：没错。提出正确的问题，这也是人生的一项美德。</p><p>老板女士：这的确是人生的美德。嗯，我学到的是：鉴于我的美国新教瑞士裔背景，我仍然很难应对模棱两可的情况。[<em>笑</em>] 我发现自己每天都需要学习它带来的压力，而且每天都会被提醒它带来的压力。我需要学习如何在这种压力中生存。我想这种情况永远不会结束，但我仍然对此感到好奇。是的，非常好奇。我不喜欢用“接受”这个词，但我认为我们可以尝试坦然面对我们无法解决的问题。</p><p> [<em>音乐：《Something Like Nostalgia》，演唱者：The Abbasi Brothers</em> ]</p><p>蒂佩特女士：保琳·博斯是明尼苏达大学的荣誉退休教授。她的著作包括<em>《丧失、创伤与韧性》</em> 、 <em>《爱上患有痴呆症的人</em>》和<em>《模糊性丧失</em>》。她最近通过明尼苏达大学推出了一门名为“模糊性丧失：其意义与应用”的全球在线课程。您可以在<a href="http://ambiguousloss.com/">ambiguousloss.com</a>找到这门课程。</p><p>工作人员： <em>On Being 的成员</em>包括 Chris Heagle、Lily Percy、Mariah Helgeson、Maia Tarrell、Marie Sambilay、Erinn Farrell、Laurén Dørdal、Tony Liu、Bethany Iverson、Erin Colasacco、Kristin Lin、Profit Idowu、Casper ter Kuile、Angie Thurston、Sue Phillips、Eddie Gonzalez、Lilian Vo、Lucas Johnson、Damon Lee、Suzette Burley、Katie Gordon、Zack Rose 和 Serri Graslie。</p><p> [<em>音乐：海洋尽头乐队的《一条分界线》</em> ]</p><p>蒂佩特女士：我们优美的主题音乐由佐伊·基廷创作并演唱。每集片尾字幕中最后出现的歌声则来自嘻哈歌手莉佐。</p><p> <em>《On Being》</em>由美国公共媒体制作。我们的资助伙伴包括：</p><p>乔治家族基金会支持公民对话项目。</p><p>费策尔研究所致力于为充满爱的世界奠定精神基础。访问<a href="http://fetzer.org/">fetzer.org</a>了解更多信息。</p><p> Kalliopeia 基金会致力于创造一个以普世精神价值观为基础，关爱我们共同家园的未来。</p><p> Humanity United 致力于在国内和世界各地提升人类尊严。了解更多信息，请访问<a href="http://humanityunited.org/">humanityunited.org</a> ，该组织隶属于奥米迪亚集团。</p><p>亨利·卢斯基金会支持“重新构想公共神学”。</p><p>鱼鹰基金会——致力于促进人们拥有充满力量、健康和充实的生活。</p><p>还有礼来基金会，这是一个总部位于印第安纳波利斯的私人家族基金会，致力于其创始人对宗教、社区发展和教育的兴趣。</p> </div> </div> <!-- Story Credits --> <!-- Original Story Link (if viewing lens) --> <!-- Inline Share Section --> <div class="inline-share-icons border-0 mt-0 pt-0"> <div class="d-flex align-items-center"> <span class="me-3 fw-semibold">Share this story:</span> <div> <a href="http://www.facebook.com/sharer.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailygood.org%2Fstory%2F2226%2Fpauline-boss-ambiguous-loss-and-the-myth-of-closure-onbeing%2F" target="_blank" class="share-icon" aria-label="Share on Facebook"> <i class="fab fa-facebook-f"></i> </a> <a 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