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The Following Is the Audio and Transcript of an onbeing.org Interview Between Krista Tippett and Dr. James Doty.

 <div class="story-meta-left"> <div class="story-logo"> <a href="https://www.dailygood.org"> <img alt="DailyGood" src="https://www.karunanews.org/pics/90x90.jpg"> </a> </div> <div class="story-meta-info"> <div class="story-author">By <a href="/author?name=On%20Being">On Being</a></div> <div class="story-details"> <span class="story-date">Apr 17, 2016</span> <span class="story-read-time">9 min read</span> </div> <div class="story-source">Source: <a href="http://www.onbeing.org/program/james-doty-the-magic-shop-of-the-brain/transcript/8418" target="_blank">onbeing.org</a></div> </div> </div>  <div class="story-meta-right">  <div class="utility-buttons"> <div class="dropdown"> <button class="utility-btn translate-btn dropdown-toggle py-1" type="button" id="translationDropdown" data-bs-toggle="dropdown" aria-expanded="false"> <i class="fa fa-language me-2" aria-hidden="true"></i>Cherokee </button> <ul class="dropdown-menu dropdown-menu-end translation-dropdown" 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perm_post"> many ways they’re still children, and they’re just looking for that person who will embrace them and love them. It can be just really extraordinary.</p> <p>MS. TIPPETT: Yeah it is. We’ve just got a few more minutes. So I was watching a panel, I think it was a CCARE conference that you did in 2014. It sounded so interesting. And it was final thoughts. And somebody on the panel, another scientist who’s working in this world of research, said — she said she thinks a growth edge for the field is identifying the — that there’s so much being learned about what we can do, in terms of fostering compassion, and human flourishing with a much richer imagination about what that looks like. But she said, we still need to keep identifying, what are the hard, thorny problems we still don’t know how to approach in modern culture for many people? And I wonder how you think about that. What would be those issues, those dynamics for you?</p> <p>DR. DOTY: Well, I think, actually, we’ve touched on some of them. One is our nature, if you will, to feel threat. And this tendency toward tribalism. And I think the other is how do you create sustainable change or habit change?</p> <p>We talked earlier about one of the tendencies also to revert back to our base behavior when we feel threat. And it’s interesting — when you pull all of this information together that we’re learning about these different areas, and you can consolidate it, it gives you a much clearer picture — and, actually, I think, an optimistic picture — of the possibilities. There’s a whole area of interest called neuro-hacking. [<em>laughs</em>]</p> <p>MS. TIPPETT: [<em>laughs</em>] I haven’t heard of that. Tell me.</p> <p>DR. DOTY: Well, it’s this belief that you can actually hack into your brain and change it. And whether it’s with drugs, or neuro-prosthetics, or a whole variety of technologies that you could take away or ameliorate some of these negative tendencies we have, and promote these other areas that are more positive. As an example, we talked about the amygdala and some of its negative effects. If you could create a drug, an implant, a stimulator that could ameliorate its effects and actually immediately respond when it feels a threat that’s not a real threat, then that could change a whole set of interactions that we have.</p> <p>MS. TIPPETT: I feel like we — it’s hard — well, I don’t know, maybe this is my lack of imagination. It’s hard for me to imagine we can transcend the human condition with implants. But here’s another thing that — I think it has run through our conversation, but I want to name it, and you’ve written this — it can hurt to go through life with your heart open. It’s not just — we can decide to not be tribal. But you open yourself to more joy, and also to pain that you perhaps didn’t let yourself feel before. And that’s something that we’re going to resist as creatures, I think.</p> <p>DR. DOTY: Most of us have a tendency to desire pleasure rather than pain. What, though, I think anyone who has lived a life — which means you have had pain and suffering — is that you realize that there is a gift in the pain and suffering, because what it allows you to do is to see the reality that this is part of life. And it’s part of a meaningful life.</p> <p>And when you’re able to take that pain and suffering and use it to not hide from the world, to use it not to be afraid of every interaction, but to use it to say, yes, it is hard sometimes, but I have learned so many lessons and have become more appreciative and have more gratitude, and see in so many examples how, in the face of the greatest adversity, people have shown their greatest humanity. And it’s when you recognize this that that is when you’re most proud of actually being part of the human species.</p> <p>MS. TIPPETT: Tell me about studies that are happening now, or — this is such a wild frontier of neuroscience and understanding our bodies and brains, and the interaction between them. Tell me about some of the emerging edges of insight that are intriguing you at the moment.</p> <p>DR. DOTY: Well, actually, it’s interesting because one of the things — and we’re actually editing something called the <em>Handbook of Compassion Science</em> which, actually, Oxford University Press will be publishing, but one of the concluding chapters that I’m co-authoring is actually the emerging field of artificial intelligence and the impact it’s going to have. And what’s extraordinary about this emerging field is the recognition — and isn't it strange — the recognition that you now have to bring in moral philosophers to interact with the computer scientists.</p> <p>MS. TIPPETT: Yes. [<em>laughs</em>]</p> <p>DR. DOTY: [<em>laughs</em>] Right?</p> <p>MS. TIPPETT: Yeah.</p> <p>DR. DOTY: Because you have to imbue these robots, if you will, with some degree of humanity. And also, in the human example, the same type of thing, where you have individuals who do not appear to have the capacity to connect with others.</p> <p>MS. TIPPETT: Right. To bond deeply, like oxytocin.</p> <p>DR. DOTY: Exactly. And so, on the forefront is the ability to potentially alter this in some manner where you can give people this gift of connection. Now, this heads off to a whole other area, right, because if you looked at the ...</p> <p>MS. TIPPETT: [<em>laughs</em>] You might have spouses slipping that into their partners’ drinks.</p> <p>DR. DOTY: [<em>laughs</em>] Yeah, potentially. But it actually it brings up this whole point of, who are we really, right?</p> <p>MS. TIPPETT: Yes. Yes, it does.</p> <p>DR. DOTY: And then, is it right or is it wrong if we have the ability to change that ...</p> <p>MS. TIPPETT: To reform them in that way, biologically.</p> <p>DR. DOTY: Yes.</p> <p>MS. TIPPETT: Wow.</p> <p>DR. DOTY: Exactly.</p> <p>MS. TIPPETT: That’s amazing.</p> <p>DR. DOTY: And, just as you say, is it right or wrong to change your spouse the way they want — you want them to be? [<em>laughs</em>]</p> <p>MS. TIPPETT: Right. But it does raise the possibility that — let’s say, in the next decades, in this century, we will be forced — because of where technology and science are taking us — to have to articulate a vision of human normalcy, and human flourishing. And I feel like you’ve answered this question in many ways in the course of this — of our conversation, but I wonder how this work that you do on a day-to-day basis, and what you learn, both personally, but also as a scientist — how does that continue to kind of infuse and shape the way you move through the world on an everyday basis? Do you see concrete ways that that continues to change you, or change you differently?</p> <p>DR. DOTY: Well, I think there are a couple of things. I think one is that, at least, what I try to do, or what my intention or aspiration to do is, is to engage people in this open-hearted fashion. And in terms of my own practice with patients, as an example, one of the things that we see with physicians is that when they have a hopeless case, or a terminal case — and oftentimes, actually, neurosurgeons — once that reality is evident, they’re gone.</p> <p>And one of the things I found for myself is that the greatest learning and wisdom that I often have been privileged to be present with is actually the transition of a person, their death, and not being afraid of death. And I think the other aspect is to, at least for me, to appreciate that every day, I have the capacity to, through my actions, improve the life of at least one person. And what we forget sometimes is even smiling at another person, which takes very little effort, for that person who receives that, it can mean an immense amount. And not to forget that these small, little actions, these little ripples, can actually end up creating a tsunami if each of us engage in them. Remember, when a person — and we know this from the science — when a person sees another person engage in a positive behavior, they’re many, many times more likely to engage in that behavior themselves. When they see another person act with kindness, and with generosity, and with gratitude...</p> <p>MS. TIPPETT: It becomes infectious, right.</p> <p>DR. DOTY: ...and when you ...</p> <p>MS. TIPPETT: It becomes contagious.</p> <p>DR. DOTY: Exactly.</p> <p>MS. TIPPETT: A positive contagion.</p> <p>DR. DOTY: Exactly. And of course, it can potentially become the opposite. But in the context of the positive, it can become contagious. And I don’t know a single person, if they knew they had the capacity to create that contagion, would not want to do so. And I think having people understand — and this, I think, has been the theme of our entire conversation — that it’s not the circumstance that’s creating their emotional response. It is them. And oftentimes we forget that. In my own case as a child, this interaction with this woman Ruth did not change my life circumstance. It changed how I emotionally responded to that circumstance. And each of us has the ability to change how we emotionally respond to our life circumstance and create an environment where we ultimately can flourish and give those around us the opportunity to flourish.</p> <p>MS. TIPPETT: Yeah. So this is my last question. Near the end of your book, you make a grand statement. You say, “We are at the beginning of an age of compassion.” What does that sentence hold for you? What do you see? How do you see that manifesting? What are its components?</p> <p>DR. DOTY: Well, sure. I think that — as you know, we had an age of enlightenment, which had a profound effect on our human species. And I believe that with the knowledge that we are gaining through neuroscience, through a variety of technologies, and we’re seeing the effect, the positive effect, of compassion in little pockets in society and how profound it can be. And again, I believe that as we experience, as we see, as we manifest these little pockets of compassion and caring for the other occurring, it is ultimately going to be recognized that this is the path that will lead us out of darkness into light.</p> <p>[<em>music: “Making Amends” by Andy McNeill</em>]</p> <p>MS. TIPPETT: James Doty is a clinical professor of neurosurgery at Stanford University and founding director of CCARE, the Center for Compassion and Altruism Research and Education. His book is <em>Into the Magic Shop: A Neurosurgeon’s Quest to Discover the Mysteries of the Brain and the Secrets of the Heart</em>.</p> <p>[<em>music: “Making Amends” by Andy McNeill</em>]</p> <p>MS. TIPPETT: At onbeing.org, you can sign up for a weekly email from us, a Letter from Loring Park. In your inbox every Saturday morning — a curated list of the best of what we are reading and publishing, including writings by our guest contributors. This week, we’re continuing our conversation on the complexity of gun violence with Jackson Culpepper’s essay, “The Thread of Violence: To Love and Learn from Guns.” Find this and much more at onbeing.org.</p> <p>[<em>music: “Hopopono” by GoGo Penguin</em>]</p> <p>MS. TIPPETT: <em>On Being</em> is Trent Gilliss, Chris Heagle, Lily Percy, Mariah Helgeson, Maia Tarrell, Annie Parsons, Marie Sambilay, Tess Montgomery, Aseel Zahran, Bethanie Kloecker, and Selena Carlson.</p> <p>Our major funding partners are:</p> <p>The John Templeton Foundation.</p> <p>The Ford Foundation, working with visionaries on the frontlines of social change worldwide at fordfoundation.org.</p> <p>The Fetzer Institute, fostering awareness of the power of love and forgiveness to transform our world. 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}</script> <h3 class="h5 pb-2 section-header mt-5"> <i class="bi bi-people text-success"></i> <span>1 PAST RESPONSES</span> <hr> </h3> <div id="cmtlist" class="mt-4"> <div class="comment-item" id="cmt_5898"> <div class="comment-container"> <div class="comment-avatar"> <img src="https://pod.servicespace.org/pics/mem/blank.jpg" alt="User avatar"> </div> <div class="comment-content-wrapper"> <div class="comment-meta"> <span class="comment-author">Kristin Pedemonti</span> <span class="comment-date">Apr 20, 2016</span> <a href="https://www.dailygood.org/story/1267/-p-the-following-is-the-audio-and-transcript-of-an-onbeing-org-interview-between-krista-tippett-and-dr-james-doty-p-p-p-iframe-frameborder-no-height-166-scrolling-no-src-https-w-soundcloud-com-player-url-https-3a-api-soundcloud-com-on-being/?t=showComment&cid=5898" class="ms-auto link-icon text-muted"><i class='fa fa-link'></i></a> </div> <div class="comment-content"> <p>I needed this today! thank you for the reminder of the beauty of our hearts and brains, how they connect and how we can see our circumstances in light rather than dark as we hold compassion for each other and ourselves!</p> </div> <div class="comment-actions"> <a href="https://www.dailygood.org/story/1267/-p-the-following-is-the-audio-and-transcript-of-an-onbeing-org-interview-between-krista-tippett-and-dr-james-doty-p-p-p-iframe-frameborder-no-height-166-scrolling-no-src-https-w-soundcloud-com-player-url-https-3a-api-soundcloud-com-on-being/?t=showComment&cid=5898#addcomment" class="reply-link" data-cmt-id="5898" data-cmt-author="Kristin Pedemonti"><i class="bi bi-reply"></i> Reply</a> <span class="btn-light post_btn small"></span> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> <script> $(document).ready(function() { // Toggle between short and full comments $('.see_full_cmt').on('click', function(e) { e.preventDefault(); 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