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Krista Tippett Eta James Doty Doktorearen Arteko onbeing.org Elkarrizketa Baten Audioa Eta Transkripzioa Da honakoa.
 <div class="story-meta-left"> <div class="story-logo"> <a href="https://www.dailygood.org"> <img alt="DailyGood" src="https://www.karunanews.org/pics/90x90.jpg"> </a> </div> <div class="story-meta-info"> <div class="story-author">By <a href="/author?name=On%20Being">On Being</a></div> <div class="story-details"> <span class="story-date">Apr 17, 2016</span> <span class="story-read-time">7 min read</span> </div> <div class="story-source">Source: <a href="http://www.onbeing.org/program/james-doty-the-magic-shop-of-the-brain/transcript/8418" target="_blank">onbeing.org</a></div> </div> </div>  <div class="story-meta-right">  <div class="utility-buttons"> <div class="dropdown"> <button class="utility-btn translate-btn dropdown-toggle py-1" type="button" id="translationDropdown" data-bs-toggle="dropdown" aria-expanded="false"> <i class="fa fa-language me-2" aria-hidden="true"></i>Basque </button> <ul class="dropdown-menu dropdown-menu-end translation-dropdown" 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dabiltza. Benetan apartekoa izan daiteke.</p><p> MS. TIPPETT: Bai da. Minutu batzuk besterik ez ditugu falta. Beraz, panel bat ikusten ari nintzen, uste dut 2014an egin zenuten CCARE konferentzia bat izan zela. Oso interesgarria iruditu zitzaidan. Eta azken gogoetak izan ziren. Eta paneleko norbaitek, ikerketaren mundu honetan lanean ari den beste zientzialari batek, esan zuen -esan zuen bere ustez, eremuaren hazkunde-ertza identifikatzen ari dela- asko ikasten ari da egin dezakegunari buruz, errukia sustatzeari dagokionez, eta gizakiak loratzeari dagokionez, hori nolakoa den irudimen askoz aberatsago batekin. Baina berak esan zuen, oraindik identifikatzen jarraitu behar dugula, zeintzuk dira oraindik kultura modernoan nola jorratu ez dakigun arazo gogor eta arantzatsuak jende askorentzat? Eta galdetzen diot nola pentsatzen duzun horri buruz. Zeintzuk izango lirateke zuretzako gai horiek, dinamika horiek?</p><p> DR. DOTY: Beno, uste dut, egia esan, horietako batzuk ukitu ditugula. Bata da gure izaera, nahi baduzu, mehatxu sentitzea. Eta tribalismorako joera hori. Eta uste dut bestea nola sortu aldaketa jasangarria edo ohitura aldaketa?</p><p> Lehenago hitz egin dugu mehatxua sentitzen dugunean gure oinarrizko jokabidera itzultzeko joera bati buruz ere. Eta interesgarria da: informazio hori guztia biltzen duzunean arlo ezberdin horiei buruz ikasten ari garela, eta sendotu dezakezunean, aukerak askoz ere argiagoa ematen dizu —eta, egia esan, nire ustez, irudi baikorra—. Neuro-hacking izeneko interes-eremu oso bat dago. [ <em>barreak</em> ]</p><p> MS. TIPPETT: [ <em>barreak</em> ] Ez dut horren berririk entzun. Esadazu.</p><p> DR. DOTY: Beno, sinesmena da benetan zure garunean sartu eta alda dezakezula. Eta dela botikekin, dela neuroprotesiekin, dela teknologia ezberdinekin, ditugun joera negatibo horietako batzuk kendu edo hobetu, eta positiboagoak diren beste arlo hauek sustatzeko. Adibide gisa, amigdalari eta bere eragin negatibo batzuei buruz hitz egin dugu. Droga bat, inplante bat, bere ondorioak hobetu eta mehatxu bat ez den mehatxu bat sentitzen duenean berehala erantzungo lituzkeen estimulatzaile bat sortuko bazenu, horrek ditugun interakzio multzo osoa alda dezake.</p><p> MS. TIPPETT: Guk sentitzen dut — gogorra da — tira, ez dakit, agian hau nire irudimen falta da. Zaila egiten zait inplanteekin giza baldintza gainditu dezakegula imajinatzea. Baina hona hemen beste gauza bat —gure elkarrizketan zehar igaro dela uste dut, baina izena eman nahi diot, eta hau idatzi duzu— min egin dezakeela bizitzatik bihotza irekita pasatzeak. Ez da bakarrik, tribal ez izatea erabaki dezakegu. Baina poztasun gehiagora irekitzen zara, eta baita agian lehenago sentitzen uzten ez zenion minari ere. Eta hori izaki gisa aurre egingo diogula uste dut.</p><p> DR. DOTY: Gutako gehienok mina baino plazerra desiratzeko joera dugu. Dena den, uste dut bizitza bat bizi izan duen edonork -minak eta sufrimenduak izan dituzula esan nahi du- da konturatzen zarela oinazean eta sufrimenduan dohain bat dagoela, zeren ahalbidetzen dizuna hori bizitzaren parte den errealitatea ikustea baita. Eta bizitza esanguratsu baten parte da.</p><p> Eta min eta sufrimendu hori hartu eta mundutik ez ezkutatzeko erabiltzeko gai zarenean, elkarrekintza ororen beldur ez izateko erabiltzeko, baina bai, batzuetan zaila da esateko erabiltzeko, baina hainbeste lezio ikasi ditut eta eskertuago eta eskertuago izan naiz, eta hainbeste adibidetan ikusten dut nola, bere zoritxar handienaren aurrean, gizakiak erakutsi duen gizakiak. Eta hori aitortzen duzunean orduantxe sentitzen zara gehien harro giza espeziearen parte izateaz.</p><p> MS. TIPPETT: Esaidazu orain gertatzen ari diren ikasketen berri, edo - hau neurozientziaren muga basatia da eta gure gorputzak eta garunak ulertzeko eta haien arteko elkarrekintza. Konta iezadazu momentu honetan intriga egiten zaituzten ikuspegiaren ertz azaleratzen ari direnetariko batzuk.</p><p> DR. DOTY: Beno, benetan, interesgarria da gauzaetako bat delako, eta benetan Oxford University Press-ek argitaratuko duen <em>Handbook of Compassion Science</em> izeneko zerbait editatzen ari gara, baina ko-egile naizen azken kapituluetako bat adimen artifizialaren eremua sortzen ari den eta horrek izango duen eragina da. Eta sortzen ari den eremu honetan apartekoa dena da —eta ez al da arraroa— aitorpena da orain filosofo moralak ekarri behar dituzula informatikariekin elkarreragiteko.</p><p> MS. TIPPETT: Bai. [ <em>barreak</em> ]</p><p> DR. DOTY: [ <em>barreak</em> ] Ez?</p><p> MS. TIPPETT: Bai.</p><p> DR. DOTY: Robot horiei gizatasun mailaren bat eman behar diezuelako, nahi baduzu. Eta baita, giza adibidean, gauza mota bera, non besteekin konektatzeko gaitasunik ez duten gizabanakoak dituzun.</p><p> MS. TIPPETT: Ongi. Sakon lotzeko, oxitozina bezala.</p><p> DR. DOTY: Zehazki. Beraz, abangoardian hau potentzialki aldatzeko gaitasuna dago, non jendeari konexio opari hori eman diezaiokezun. Orain, hau beste eremu batera doa, ezta, zeren eta...</p><p> MS. TIPPETT: [ <em>barreak</em> ] Baliteke ezkontideek bikotekideen edarietan hori sartzea.</p><p> DR. DOTY: [ <em>barreak</em> ] Bai, potentzialki. Baina, egia esan, puntu hau guztia ekartzen du, nor gara benetan, ezta?</p><p> MS. TIPPETT: Bai. Bai, bai.</p><p> DR. DOTY: Eta orduan, zuzena ala gaizki dago hori aldatzeko gaitasuna badugu...</p><p> MS. TIPPETT: Horiek horrela erreformatzeko, biologikoki.</p><p> DR. DOTY: Bai.</p><p> MS. TIPPETT: Aupa.</p><p> DR. DOTY: Zehazki.</p><p> MS. TIPPETT: Hori harrigarria da.</p><p> DR. DOTY: Eta, zuk esaten duzun bezala, zuzena ala okerra al da zure ezkontidea nahi duten moduan aldatzea, nahi duzu? [ <em>barreak</em> ]</p><p> MS. TIPPETT: Ongi. Baina aukera planteatzen du —demagun, hurrengo hamarkadetan, mende honetan, behartuta egongo garela —teknologia eta zientziak nora eramaten gaituztenagatik— giza normaltasunaren eta gizakiaren loraldiaren ikuspegia artikulatu behar izatea. Eta galdera honi hainbat modutara erantzun diozula iruditzen zait: gure elkarrizketan zehar, baina galdetzen diot nola egiten duzun lan hori egunerokotasunean, eta zer ikasten duzun, bai pertsonalki, baita zientzialari gisa ere, nola jarraitzen du horrek munduan zehar mugitzeko modua nola sartzen eta moldatzen egunero? Modu zehatzak ikusten al dituzu horrek aldatzen jarraitzen zaituen edo bestela aldatzen zaituen?</p><p> DR. DOTY: Beno, gauza pare bat daudela uste dut. Uste dut bat dela, behintzat, egiten saiatzen naizena, edo nire asmoa edo nahia dena, jendea bihotz irekiko moda honetan parte hartzea. Eta pazienteekin dudan praktikari dagokionez, adibide gisa, medikuekin ikusten dugun gauzetako bat itxaropenik gabeko kasu bat edo kasu terminal bat dutenean —eta askotan, egia esan, neurozirujauek— errealitate hori agerikoa denean, desagertu egiten dira.</p><p> Eta niretzat aurkitu dudan gauzetako bat zera da: sarritan egoteko pribilegioa izan dudan ikaskuntza eta jakinduria handiena pertsona baten trantsizioa dela, haien heriotza, eta heriotzaren beldurrik ez izatea. Eta uste dut beste alderdia, niretzat behintzat, balioestea egunero, nire ekintzen bidez, gutxienez pertsona baten bizitza hobetzeko gaitasuna dudala. Eta batzuetan ahazten zaiguna beste pertsona bati irribarre egitea ere bada, eta horrek oso esfortzu txikia eskatzen du, hori jasotzen duen pertsona horrentzat, izugarrizko zenbatekoa izan dezake. Eta ez ahaztu ekintza txiki, txiki hauek, uhin txiki hauek, benetan tsunami bat sortzen amai dezaketela gutako bakoitzak horietan parte hartzen badugu. Gogoratu, pertsona batek, eta hori zientziatik dakigunean, pertsona batek beste pertsona bat jokabide positibo bat duela ikusten duenean, asko eta askotan litekeena da beraiek jokabide hori izateko. Beste pertsona bat adeitasunez, eta eskuzabaltasunez, eta esker onez jokatzen ikusten duenean...</p><p> MS. TIPPETT: Infekzioso bihurtzen da, ezta.</p><p> DR. DOTY: ...eta zuk...</p><p> MS. TIPPETT: Kutsakorra bihurtzen da.</p><p> DR. DOTY: Zehazki.</p><p> MS. TIPPETT: Kutsadura positiboa.</p><p> DR. DOTY: Zehazki. Eta noski, potentzialki kontrakoa bihur daiteke. Baina positiboaren testuinguruan, kutsakorra izan daiteke. Eta ez dakit pertsona bakar batek, kutsadura hori sortzeko ahalmena duela jakingo balu, ez luke egin nahi. Eta uste dut jendeak ulertzea - eta hau izan da, nire ustez, gure elkarrizketa osoaren gaia - ez dela zirkunstantzia haien erantzun emozionala sortzen duena. Haiek dira. Eta askotan hori ahazten zaigu. Nire kasuan, txikitan, Ruth emakume honekin harreman horrek ez zuen nire bizitzako egoera aldatu. Egoera horri emozionalki erantzuteko modua aldatu zuen. Eta gutako bakoitzak gure bizitzako zirkunstantziari emozionalki erantzuteko modua aldatzeko eta azken finean loratzeko eta ingurukoei loratzeko aukera emateko ingurune bat sortzeko gaitasuna du.</p><p> MS. TIPPETT: Bai. Beraz, hau da nire azken galdera. Zure liburuaren amaieran, adierazpen handi bat egiten duzu. Zuk diozu: "Errukiaren aro baten hasieran gaude". Zer balio du esaldi horrek zuretzat? Zer ikusten duzu? Nola ikusten duzu manifestazio hori? Zeintzuk dira bere osagaiak?</p><p> DR. DOTY: Beno, ziur. Uste dut, dakizuenez, Ilustrazioaren garaia izan genuen, eta horrek eragin handia izan zuen gure giza espeziean. Eta uste dut hori neurozientziaren bidez, hainbat teknologiaren bidez lortzen ari garen ezagutzarekin, eta gizartearen poltsiko txikietan errukiaren efektua, eragin positiboa, ikusten ari garela eta zein sakona izan daitekeen. Eta berriro ere, uste dut, ikusten dugun heinean, errukiaren eta bestearen zaintzaren poltsiko txiki hauek agertzen ari garen heinean, azken finean, iluntasunetik argira eramango gaituen bidea dela aitortuko dela.</p><p> [ <em>musika: Andy McNeill-en “Making Amends”</em> ]</p><p> MS. TIPPETT: James Doty Stanford Unibertsitateko neurokirurgiako irakasle klinikoa da eta CCAREren, Errukiaren eta Altruismoaren Ikerketa eta Hezkuntza Zentroko zuzendari sortzailea. Bere liburua <em>Into the Magic Shop: A Neurosurgeon's Quest to Discover the Mysteries of the Brain and the Secrets of the Heart da</em> .</p><p> [ <em>musika: Andy McNeill-en “Making Amends”</em> ]</p><p> MS. TIPPETT: onbeing.org webgunean, gure astero mezu elektroniko baterako izena eman dezakezu, Loring Parkeko gutun bat. Larunbat goizero zure sarrera-ontzian: irakurtzen eta argitaratzen ari garen onenaren zerrenda prestatu bat, gure gonbidatuen kolaboratzaileen idatziak barne. Aste honetan, arma-indarkeriaren konplexutasunari buruzko elkarrizketarekin jarraitzen dugu Jackson Culpepper-en "Indarkeriaren haria: maitatzeko eta ikasteko pistolak" saiakerarekin. Aurkitu hau eta askoz gehiago onbeing.org webgunean.</p><p> [ <em>musika: GoGo Penguin-en “Hopopono”</em> ]</p><p> MS. TIPPETT: <em>On Being</em> Trent Gilliss, Chris Heagle, Lily Percy, Mariah Helgeson, Maia Tarrell, Annie Parsons, Marie Sambilay, Tess Montgomery, Aseel Zahran, Bethanie Kloecker eta Selena Carlson dira.</p><p> Gure finantza-bazkide nagusiak hauek dira:</p><p> John Templeton Fundazioa.</p><p> Ford Fundazioa, mundu osoko aldaketa sozialaren lehen lerroetan ikuskariekin lanean, fordfoundation.org webgunean.</p><p> Fetzer Institutuak, gure mundua eraldatzeko maitasunaren eta barkamenaren boterearen kontzientzia sustatuz. 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}</script> <h3 class="h5 pb-2 section-header mt-5"> <i class="bi bi-people text-success"></i> <span>1 PAST RESPONSES</span> <hr> </h3> <div id="cmtlist" class="mt-4"> <div class="comment-item" id="cmt_5898"> <div class="comment-container"> <div class="comment-avatar"> <img src="https://pod.servicespace.org/pics/mem/blank.jpg" alt="User avatar"> </div> <div class="comment-content-wrapper"> <div class="comment-meta"> <span class="comment-author">Kristin Pedemonti</span> <span class="comment-date">Apr 20, 2016</span> <a href="https://www.dailygood.org/story/1267/-p-krista-tippett-eta-james-doty-doktorearen-arteko-onbeing-org-elkarrizketa-baten-audioa-eta-transkripzioa-da-honakoa-p-p-p-iframe-frameborder-no-height-166-scrolling-no-src-https-w-soundcloud-com-player-url-https-3a-api-soundcloud-com-on-being/?t=showComment&cid=5898" class="ms-auto link-icon text-muted"><i class='fa fa-link'></i></a> </div> <div class="comment-content"> <p>I needed this today! thank you for the reminder of the beauty of our hearts and brains, how they connect and how we can see our circumstances in light rather than dark as we hold compassion for each other and ourselves!</p> </div> <div class="comment-actions"> <a href="https://www.dailygood.org/story/1267/-p-krista-tippett-eta-james-doty-doktorearen-arteko-onbeing-org-elkarrizketa-baten-audioa-eta-transkripzioa-da-honakoa-p-p-p-iframe-frameborder-no-height-166-scrolling-no-src-https-w-soundcloud-com-player-url-https-3a-api-soundcloud-com-on-being/?t=showComment&cid=5898#addcomment" class="reply-link" data-cmt-id="5898" data-cmt-author="Kristin Pedemonti"><i class="bi bi-reply"></i> Reply</a> <span class="btn-light post_btn small"></span> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> <script> $(document).ready(function() { // Toggle between short and full comments $('.see_full_cmt').on('click', function(e) { e.preventDefault(); 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