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以下是克里斯塔·蒂佩特 (Krista Tippett) 对大卫·斯坦德尔-拉斯特修士 (Brother David Steindl-Rast) 的采访录音和文字稿，该采访来自“On Being”节目。
  <div class="story-meta-container pb-3">  <div class="story-meta-left"> <div class="story-logo"> <a href="https://www.dailygood.org"> <img alt="DailyGood" src="https://www.karunanews.org/pics/90x90.jpg"> </a> </div> <div class="story-meta-info"> <div class="story-author">By <a href="/author?name=On%20Being">On Being</a></div> <div class="story-details"> <span class="story-date">Feb 9, 2016</span> <span class="story-read-time">1 min read</span> </div> <div class="story-source">Source: <a href="http://www.onbeing.org/program/david-steindl-rast-anatomy-of-gratitude/transcript/8366" target="_blank">onbeing.org</a></div> </div> </div>  <div class="story-meta-right">  <div class="utility-buttons"> <div class="dropdown"> <button class="utility-btn translate-btn dropdown-toggle py-1" type="button" id="translationDropdown" data-bs-toggle="dropdown" aria-expanded="false"> <i class="fa fa-language me-2" aria-hidden="true"></i>Chinese (PRC) </button> <ul class="dropdown-menu dropdown-menu-end 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我们必须正视我们对此的焦虑。我们必须承认我们的焦虑。但我们不能害怕。而感恩之心……</p><p>蒂佩特女士：我们必须承认自己的焦虑，但我们绝不能害怕。</p><p>施泰因德尔-拉斯特修士：不是恐惧。这两者之间有很大的区别。你看，焦虑，或者说焦虑不安，这个词源于一个意为“狭窄”和窒息的词根，而最初的焦虑就是我们出生时的焦虑。除非你是剖腹产，否则我们所有人都要经历分娩这个极其痛苦的过程才能来到这个世界。对母亲和孩子来说，这真的是一场生死攸关的搏斗。这就是焦虑的最初形态，原型。在那时，我们之所以能无所畏惧地经历这一切，是因为恐惧是对这种焦虑的抵抗。明白吗？如果你顺其自然，它就能把你带到出生。如果你抗拒它，你就会死在子宫里。或者你的母亲会因此丧命。</p><p>蒂佩特女士：所以，焦虑不仅是可以理解的，而且是对许多人类经历的一种合理反应。</p><p>施泰因德尔-拉斯特修士：这是一个合理的反应，我们应该承认并肯定它，因为否认我们的焦虑是另一种形式的抵抗。</p><p>蒂佩特女士：没错。所以，这很合理，但真正的恐惧其实是抵抗的那一刻。</p><p>施泰因德尔-拉斯特修士：但恐惧会摧毁生活。</p><p>蒂佩特女士：这是一个完全不同的举动，它将我们，我们的身体，我们的思想，带向一个完全不同的方向。</p><p>施泰因德尔-拉斯特修士：没错，它会摧毁一切。正因如此，我们才能回顾自己的人生，不仅是出生，还有所有那些让我们陷入困境、饱受焦虑折磨的时刻。焦虑并非人生的可有可无，它是人生的一部分。我们带着焦虑来到这个世界。当我们审视它、铭记它时，我们会对自己说：我们挺过来了。我们克服了它。我们成功了。事实上，我们人生中最严重的焦虑和最艰难的时刻，往往在多年以后，当你回首往事时，会发现它们其实是全新开始的契机，是全新人生的起点。</p><p>蒂佩特女士：对，对。</p><p>施泰因德尔-拉斯特修士：这可以教会我们一些东西，也可以给我们勇气。现在，当我们展望未来，意识到我们正处于困境时，我们就会明白，是的，我们正处在困境之中。这可能是世界，或者至少是人类历史上，所处的最艰难的境地。但是，如果我们顺其自然——那将是一种感恩的生活——如果我们顺其自然，那将是一次新生。这就是对生命的信任。而顺其自然意味着你要审视，机会是什么……</p><p>蒂佩特女士：所以，我想，对你来说，你所表达的，感恩不仅在于活在当下，也在于发现当下的机遇。除此之外……</p><p>施泰因德尔-拉斯特修士：我看到了机会。</p><p>蒂佩特女士：……目前的情况。</p><p>施泰因德尔-拉斯特修士：并抓住这个机会。</p><p>蒂佩特女士：好的。所以这是一个非常活跃的……</p><p> BR. STEINDL-RAST：是的。</p><p>蒂佩特女士：它非常活跃。</p><p>施泰因德尔-拉斯特修士：这非常困难，因为焦虑会让我们瘫痪。你明白吗？但真正让我们瘫痪的是恐惧。不是焦虑，而是恐惧，因为它会抵抗。当我们放弃这种抵抗的那一刻——所以，一切都取决于对生命的信任。信任。有了这份信任，有了这份信念，我们就能直面焦虑，告诉自己，这太可怕了，感觉糟透了。但我相信，这或许只是通往更圆满人生的又一次重生。</p><p>蒂佩特女士：您曾说过，上帝是一种方向，而不是某种事物。</p><p>施泰因德尔-拉斯特修士：一个方向。是的，但不是一个冷冰冰的方向，明白吗？</p><p>蒂佩特女士：嗯。</p><p>施泰因德尔-拉斯特修士：里尔克有一句很美的诗句，是他向上帝祈祷时写的。您懂德语，那我就先用德语说一遍……</p><p>蒂佩特女士：我也和你一样喜欢里尔克。是啊，请用德语说吧。</p><p> BR。斯坦德尔-拉斯特：他说，“Ich geh doch immer auf Dich zu, mit meinem ganzen Gehen。Denn wer bin ich und wer bist du, wenn wir uns nicht verstehn?”所以他说：“我迈出的每一步，都是在走向你。因为如果我们不能互相理解，我是谁，你是谁？”看？这是针对那个伟大的奥秘而言的，但当我说奥秘时，我的意思不是含糊的东西，我的意思是非常明确的东西。</p><p>蒂佩特女士：嗯，这又让我们回到了归属感这个话题上。归属感是……的核心。</p><p>施泰因德尔-拉斯特修士：答案就在那里。我去找你，明白吗？当一个人说出“我”的时候，那一刻我就假定了一个“你”。这意味着我说“我”，是因为我与一个“你”有关，那个神秘的、始终存在的“你”。从这个意义上说，这种神秘并非无关紧要。</p><p>蒂佩特女士：嗯。这是关系性的。</p><p>施泰因德尔-拉斯特：这是一种关系——归根结底，一切都归结于关系。</p><p>蒂佩特女士：是的。您还说过，我觉得这句话很有意思——“神秘主义是一种无限归属感的体验。”</p><p>施泰因德尔-拉斯特：是的。</p><p>蒂佩特女士：那种神秘主义——因为，我想那是一个词——你在西方文化中使用“神秘主义”这个词，人们可能会想到一些非常抽象和非常精英化的东西。</p><p>施泰因德尔-拉斯特修士：不，不。我相信我们每个人都是神秘主义者，因为我们偶尔会体验到一种归属感，这种体验是突如其来的——女性常说，她们生孩子时会有这种感觉，或者当我们坠入爱河时，也会有这种归属感。有时，没有任何特别的原因，突然置身大自然中，你会感到与万物融为一体。每个人都有这种体验。但我们所说的伟大神秘主义者，他们让这种体验决定并塑造了他们生命中的每一刻。他们从未忘记它。而我们人类，我们其他人，却往往会忘记它。我们就是会忘记它。但如果我们把它铭记于心，那么我们就真正与那伟大的奥秘相连。然后我们就能从中找到喜悦。</p><p> [<em>音乐：理查·施特劳斯的《Fünf Klavierstücke，Op. 3：I. Andante》，格伦·古尔德演奏</em>]</p><p>蒂佩特女士：我是克丽斯塔·蒂佩特，这里是<em>《论存在》</em> 。今天我们在奥地利圣吉尔根的古特艾希修道院，与大卫·斯坦德尔-拉斯特修士一起。</p><p> [<em>音乐：理查·施特劳斯的《Fünf Klavierstücke，Op. 3：I. Andante》，格伦·古尔德演奏</em>]</p><p>蒂佩特女士：您说的这句话非常大胆，认为每个人都可以被称为神秘主义者。在您看来，神秘主义并非专业人士的专属领域，而是每个人与生俱来的权利。</p><p>施泰因德尔-拉斯特修士：是的。神秘主义者并非特殊之人。每个人都是某种特殊的神秘主义者。我从未接触过那种独一无二的神秘主义者，因为每个人都是独一无二的。从来没有人像你一样，既拥有天赋，也拥有缺点。这与我所说的“神秘”的含义非常接近。我所说的伟大奥秘，我们所面对的神圣奥秘，并非某种神秘之物。</p><p>在神秘体验中，有些东西是我们无法把握的。你看，我们无法用语言描述它，无法用图像想象它，也无法用概念表达它。我们无法把握它。但我们可以理解它。把握和理解之间有着巨大的差别。你通过被把握而理解它。它会对你产生某种影响。许多人在音乐方面也有着类似的体验。你理解音乐，但你无法把握音乐。你做不到。音乐中有什么可把握的呢？</p><p>蒂佩特女士：你根本没法谈论这件事。你不能……</p><p>施泰因德尔-拉斯特修士：你甚至无法用言语来描述它，因为你没有相应的词汇和概念。但当你允许它抓住你，并将自己完全投入到音乐中时，你就能理解它。那伟大的奥秘——你可以称之为生命，或上帝，或任何你想称呼它的东西——那伟大的奥秘，所有人类都始终面对着它，我们显然也无法完全掌握它，但我们可以通过允许它对我们产生影响来理解它。而这种开放可以是完全无声的。无声的开放是一种奇妙的祈祷形式。</p><p>蒂佩特女士：其中一种方法——你谈到祈祷，也是在感恩的语境下，任何能让你心生愉悦的事情都可以，对吧？这是一种开始谈论祈祷体验的方式。</p><p>施泰因德尔-拉斯特修士：是的。当我们心怀感恩时，我们会感受到一种令我们心潮澎湃的喜悦，这种喜悦就是感恩，而这种喜悦本身就是一种祈祷，因为它能提升我们的心境。任何能提升我们心境的事物，我们生来就是为了感受这种喜悦。</p><p>蒂佩特女士：是的，您曾说过，“如果钓鱼能让你心情愉悦，那么钓鱼就是你的祈祷。”</p><p> BR. STEINDL-RAST：是的。</p><p>蒂佩特女士：或者说，这是你祈祷的一部分。我知道我得说完。我想，或许，最后——你学过心理学。我感觉你很清楚，质疑感恩是我们的一种本能。也许在西方文化中确实如此，对吧？质疑感恩是否恰当、是否纯粹，怀疑他人的动机——当我们踏入感恩的领域时，我们会变得非常复杂——甚至会拒绝向他人表达感激之情。</p><p>您谈到要有勇气让自己敞开心扉，体验感恩所带来的深度。我想请您再详细谈谈这一点，以及您是如何领悟到这一点的，您又是如何体验让自己敞开心扉，体验这种深度的。</p><p>施泰因德尔-拉斯特修士：是的。当我谈到深度等等时，那些都只是意象，是诗意的意象，我们不应该……</p><p>蒂佩特女士：但我认为，这是一种非常有吸引力的语言。</p><p>施泰因德尔-拉斯特：是的。嗯，诗意的语言比大多数其他语言更有力量。所以，你想让我表达个人感受。比如说，当我遇到某些事情，不得不说：“天哪，我显然对此毫无感激之情。我又能从中找到什么机会呢？”这样说太轻率了，我不得不收回自己的话。</p><p>然后我放下这一切，放下所有这些想法，放下所有这些——我只是试着静静地坐着。就像你把所有你不想面对的事情都扔进湖里。它们沉入水底，沉入水底，沉入水底。然后你让自己安静下来。当你足够安静的时候，这可能需要很长时间，也可能不需要太长时间，也可能不会一次就做到，可能需要几天甚至几周。但当你足够安静的时候，无需你费心思去想什么，答案就会自然而然地浮现出来。这是我能表达的最好方式。但我们总能找到出路。把所有东西都扔进湖里，就像没有阻力一样。你不会放弃……</p><p>蒂佩特女士：好的，所以你是在放任……</p><p>施泰因德尔-拉斯特：……不要有感觉。</p><p>蒂佩特女士：……摆脱那种恐惧，那种冲动……</p><p>施泰因德尔-拉斯特修士：放下恐惧。</p><p>蒂佩特女士：……害怕。</p><p>施泰因德尔-拉斯特修士：接受它吧。这种勇气，这种静默的接纳，接纳——它会带来新生。我无法证明这一点，但我鼓励你们尝试，每个人都尝试一下。我相信你们也会找到它。</p><p>蒂佩特女士：好的。我认为人们都感觉到我们生活在一个非常黑暗的时代。你现在对世界上的什么事心存感激？什么能给你带来希望？你的感激之情在哪里找到了归宿？</p><p>施泰因德尔-拉斯特：嗯，我已经说过一件更宏观的事情，那就是回顾过去，你会发现所有最艰难的经历总是会带来新的、甚至是更好的东西，如果我们相信的话。</p><p>蒂佩特女士：即使在文化上，甚至在地缘政治上也是如此。</p><p>施泰因德尔-拉斯特修士：在各个层面，在各个层面。但为了让我们能够继续前行，我们只需对下一次呼吸心存感激，因为这并非理所当然。我还能呼吸。如果我想到数百万呼吸困难的人，而我却能呼吸。只要记住这一点。就对下一次呼吸心存感激吧。</p><p>蒂佩特女士：好的。非常感谢。</p><p>施泰因德尔-拉斯特：不客气。</p><p>蒂佩特女士：来到这里真是太棒了。</p><p> [<em>音乐：约翰·施特劳斯的《华尔兹 6-10，作品 7》，拿破仑·科斯特演奏</em>]</p><p>蒂佩特女士：大卫·斯坦德尔-拉斯特修士是“感恩生活网络”的创始人兼高级顾问。他的著作包括<em>《感恩：祈祷的核心》</em> 、 <em>《归属宇宙》</em>和<em>《聆听之心：神圣感官的灵性》</em> 。</p><p>如果你想更多地了解感恩，可以访问 David 兄弟的网站 grantness.org，他也是 elementofgratitude.org 这个研究和反思汇总网站中介绍的人物之一。</p><p>在 onbeing.org，您可以订阅我们每周六早上发送的邮件“<em>来自洛林公园的信”</em> 。邮件中会包含我们精心挑选的阅读和发表的优质内容，包括特约撰稿人的文章。本周，您可以阅读种族与归属感研究学者约翰·鲍威尔的文章。您可以在 onbeing.org 上找到他的文章以及更多精彩内容。</p><p> <em>On Being 的成员</em>包括 Trent Gilliss、Chris Heagle、Lily Percy、Mariah Helgeson、Maia Tarrell、Annie Parsons、Marie Sambilay、Tess Montgomery、Aseel Zahran 和 Bethanie Kloecker。</p><p>我们得以前往奥地利拜访大卫修士，这要感谢约翰·邓普顿基金会的特别资助。</p><p>本周还要特别感谢奥地利圣吉尔根古特艾希修道院的玛格丽特·韦克利、克里斯蒂·纳尔逊、托马斯·赫斯勒修士以及其他工作人员。</p><p>我们的主要资助伙伴包括：</p><p>约翰·邓普顿基金会。</p><p>福特基金会与世界各地社会变革前沿的远见卓识者携手合作，详情请访问 fordfoundation.org。</p><p>费策尔研究所致力于提升人们对爱与宽恕力量的认识，以期改变我们的世界。访问 fetzer.org 了解更多信息。</p><p> Kalliopeia 基金会致力于支持那些将敬畏、互惠和韧性融入现代生活结构的组织。</p><p>亨利·卢斯基金会支持“重新构想公共神学”。</p><p>以及 Osprey 基金会，一个促进健康、充满力量和充实生活的催化剂。</p> </div> </div>    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href="https://www.dailygood.org/story/1217/-p-krista-tippett-brother-david-steindl-rast-a-href-http-www-onbeing-org-program-david-steindl-rast-anatomy-of-gratitude-transcript-8366-on-being-a-p-iframe-frameborder-no-height-166-scrolli-on-being/?t=showComment&cid=5797" class="ms-auto link-icon text-muted"><i class='fa fa-link'></i></a> </div> <div class="comment-content"> <p>* smiles * Thank you.</p> </div> <div class="comment-actions"> <a href="https://www.dailygood.org/story/1217/-p-krista-tippett-brother-david-steindl-rast-a-href-http-www-onbeing-org-program-david-steindl-rast-anatomy-of-gratitude-transcript-8366-on-being-a-p-iframe-frameborder-no-height-166-scrolli-on-being/?t=showComment&cid=5797#addcomment" class="reply-link" data-cmt-id="5797" data-cmt-author="Ben"><i class="bi bi-reply"></i> Reply</a> <span class="btn-light post_btn small"></span> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> <script> $(document).ready(function() { // Toggle between short and full comments 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