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<div class="story-meta-left"> <div class="story-logo"> <a href="https://www.dailygood.org"> <img alt="DailyGood" src="https://www.karunanews.org/pics/90x90.jpg"> </a> </div> <div class="story-meta-info"> <div class="story-author">By <a href="/author?name=On%20Being">On Being</a></div> <div class="story-details"> <span class="story-date">Jun 25, 2016</span> <span class="story-read-time">1 min read</span> </div> <div class="story-source">Source: <a href="http://www.onbeing.org/program/rebecca-solnit-falling-together/transcript/8695" target="_blank">onbeing.org</a></div> </div> </div>  <div class="story-meta-right">  <div class="utility-buttons"> <div class="dropdown"> <button class="utility-btn translate-btn dropdown-toggle py-1" type="button" id="translationDropdown" data-bs-toggle="dropdown" aria-expanded="false"> <i class="fa fa-language me-2" aria-hidden="true"></i>Chinese (PRC) </button> <ul class="dropdown-menu dropdown-menu-end translation-dropdown" 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target="_blank" class="share-icon d-none d-sm-inline-flex" aria-label="Share on WhatsApp"> <i class="fab fa-whatsapp"></i> </a> </div> </div> </div>  <div class="story-content" id="dg_story"> <div class="dark-link perm_post"> 从门诺教徒到相当激进的无政府主义者，再到与“共同立场”（Common Ground）组织合作的人们——该组织在某种程度上是由黑豹党及其年轻的白人支持者创立的，后来发展成为一个涵盖众多领域的项目，虽然并非所有项目都完美无缺，但其中一些成果令人惊叹。它也真正成为了社会讨论的一部分。</p><p>但他们创办了第一家真正优秀的诊所，为需要紧急护理、糖尿病药物、破伤风疫苗或伤口消毒的人们提供服务。这家诊所后来发展成为“共同家园诊所”（Common Ground Clinic），至今已运营超过十年，依然蓬勃发展。我发现追踪这种间接影响非常有趣，因为卡特里娜飓风催生的一些东西，至今仍在每天帮助着人们。</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>好的。刚才我们聊到了爱，您认为爱除了爱家人、爱孩子这些狭隘的层面之外，在这个世界上还有很多其他意义。那么，如果我问您，在卡特里娜飓风十年后的新奥尔良，当您想到“爱”这个词作为一种实际的、强有力的、公共的事物时，您会想到什么故事或人物呢？</p><p><b>索尔尼特女士：</b>在很多方面，新奥尔良都是一个充满魔力的地方——这里的人们彼此之间有着深厚的联系。我想解释的是，卡特里娜飓风给新奥尔良的人们失去了我们大多数人几代人都没有拥有过的东西。很多人住在同一个社区，认识数百人。他们认识所有住在附近的人。</p><p>他们可能拥有庞大的家族。他们可能像法茨·多米诺一样，出生在下九区的一户人家里，由他的祖母接生。人们住在祖父母的房子里。他们根深蒂固，枝繁叶茂。他们参与公共庆祝活动。他们与陌生人交谈。这里是一个充满狄俄尼索斯精神的地方，一年四十多个星期天都有第二线游行，不仅仅是狂欢节，也不仅仅是忏悔星期二。这是一个充满灵性的地方。所有这些都是这个地方的一部分，所以它本身就非常丰富。但是卡特里娜飓风之后，很多人感到，好吧，我们真的必须参与进来，才能让这个地方继续存在下去。公民参与度显著提高，许多与司法和警务相关的机构也进行了改革。</p><p>实际上，由于它是全美最腐败、最无能的警察部门，所以联邦政府接管了警察局。在经历了诸多腐败之后，尤其是雷·纳金（Ray Nagin）的腐败（他因腐败入狱——他是卡特里娜飓风期间和之后的市长），他们终于迎来了一位还算不错的市长。人们开始认真思考：我们身处世界上侵蚀速度最快的海岸线上，这座城市部分地区低于海平面，气候变化、风暴增多、海平面上升的时代，我们该如何适应？</p><p>人们正在就重新思考城市、城市中的水资源运作方式以及构建生存系统展开一场激动人心的对话。再次强调，所有灾难都是如此——这场风暴固然可怕，夺去了约1800人的生命，许多黑人流离失所，再也无法返回家园。它影响了社区的延续和心理健康。但它也激发了人们的参与，并促成了对未来极具创造性的规划。如果没有卡特里娜飓风，新奥尔良或许会继续其缓慢的衰落。</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>没错。现在这里有点像个孵化器，不是吗？有点像……</p><p><b>索尔尼特女士：</b>是的，是的。很多年轻人，那些搬到那里的年轻理想主义者，都爱上了这个地方，然后留了下来。情况很复杂。他们当中有些人是白人，正在让传统的黑人社区变得高档化。但他们也——并非全是白人——他们带来了对城市规划、社区花园的热情，以及对这些社会和生态系统的思考。现在，这个地方焕发出了新的活力，并且保留了它以前的大部分活力，甚至可以说全部活力。</p><p> [<em>音乐：Washboard Chaz Blues Trio 的《Fire Once Again》</em> ]</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>我是克丽斯塔·蒂佩特，这里是<em>《论存在》</em> 。今天我们邀请到的是作家、历史学家和活动家丽贝卡·索尔尼特。</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>在我看来，卡特里娜飓风后新奥尔良的故事只是一个极端例子，它反映了一个更大的现实。您曾写过一段话，表达得非常精辟。事实上，如果我们停下来仔细审视，就会发现我们每个人的人生故事都包含着无数的事件、行为和人物，没有他们，我们就不会存在。您写道：“追溯得足够远，你生命中的这一刻就成了稀有物种，是奇异进化的结果。就像一只本应灭绝的蝴蝶，却凭借我们称之为巧合的不可解释的因素幸存了下来。”</p><p><b>索尔尼特女士：</b>是的。这也关乎我们生活的不可预测性。我所说的希望之源在于，我们不知道哪些力量在起作用，不知道谁、什么会出现。我们可能甚至没有注意到，或者忽略了的某些事物，最终会成为我们生活中一股巨大的力量。我们这个文化中的人们如此热爱确定性。他们似乎更爱确定性而不是希望。正因如此，他们常常会抓住那些充满苦涩和绝望的论调不放，比如他们确切地知道将会发生什么，油砂管道一定会通过，内布拉斯加州等地的那些乌合之众般的活动家根本不可能阻止这条威力巨大的化石燃料管道，颠覆石油行业。</p><p>而这种确定性在我看来实在太悲剧了——当然，我们最终阻止了油砂管道项目，因为六年来，即使在人们认为这是徒劳无功、荒谬可笑、几乎不可能实现的，人们仍然坚持不懈地推动。所以，是的，追溯这些事情——我希望人们能够讲述更复杂的故事，并认可那些不在聚光灯下的参与者。有时候我们会赢，机会确实存在，但机会仅仅是机会而已。你必须抓住它，并努力创造机会。你并非总是会赢，但只要你尝试，就不一定会输。</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>是的，你不可能总是赢，但我认为，我还是要回到你的观点，历史就像天气，实际上我们的人生也像天气，而不是下棋。所以，你的观点——实际上，我认为这是神学在最佳状态下所展现的那种复杂性——你走过那些关卡，也许你赢不了那场战斗，或者你没能看到你希望的结果，也许你彻底失败了，但你想要讲述现实和我们人生故事的方式——这种复杂的方式——是说，无论我们做什么，总会有一些我们无法控制、无法预见、也无法预估的后果，但它们很重要。它们至关重要。</p><p><b>索尔尼特女士：</b>我认识的那个人喜欢说一句话，我听得出这句话出自福柯，但我记错了，他说：“我们知道自己在做什么，也知道自己为什么这么做，但我们不知道我们做的事会产生什么后果。” 我很喜欢这种感觉，我们无法预知后果。我们可以学习和推测，但很多重要的事情都是间接的、非线性的，就连跳棋这种简单的游戏都显得过于复杂，难以用这个比喻来概括。我以前用保龄球来举例，要么我们用保龄球击倒了所有球瓶，要么我们投出了一个洗沟球，什么也没发生。我那位很棒的环保主义者朋友奇普·沃德喜欢谈论“可量化的暴政”。我用他的这个说法已经有15年了，这确实是一种暴政。我认为——当你不得不关注那些无法量化的东西时，它确实会变得神秘起来。马丁·路德·金于1968年遇刺身亡。一本讲述公民不服从运动如何奏效的漫画书在民权运动期间发行，后被翻译成阿拉伯语，并在埃及传播，成为推动阿拉伯之春的强大力量之一。如今，阿拉伯之春已经持续五年了。虽然当时的情况看起来并不乐观，但他们确实推翻了许多政权。五年前，法国大革命的前景也并不乐观。</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>哦，我知道。</p><p><b>索尔尼特女士：</b>我前几天也说过。而且……</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>您指出这一点非常重要，我们——还有我们的革命。我的意思是，这些事情很复杂，需要几代人的时间。而我们却忘记了这一点。我们已经把它称为失败，这真是荒谬，太荒谬了。</p><p><b>索尔尼特女士：</b>是的，我认为有很多值得探讨的观点，例如，推翻独裁者固然可喜，但民主制度也必不可少。以埃及为例，军方势力并未就此消失，我们需要的不仅仅是街头那场激动人心的抗议和权力的瓦解，而是需要持续不断地致力于体制改革，使其承担责任。但无论如何，发生的一切意义重大。我认为对于许多人——尤其是中东地区的人们来说，他们意识到，生活在威权统治之下并非不可避免，我们并非无能为力。我想到了亚历山大·杜布切克，这位1968年“布拉格之春”的英雄，尽管这场运动最终被镇压，但他在1989年的革命中也发挥了重要作用……</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>是的。</p><p><b>索尔尼特女士：</b> ……解放了那个国家。</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>说得太对了。是啊。</p><p><b>索尔尼特女士：</b>我想要更好的比喻，更好的故事，更开放的心态，更好的问题。所有这些都像是能为我们提供一些工具，让我们更好地应对那些令人惊叹的可能性和可怕的现实。然而，我们常常得到的却是一些笨拙、不足的工具——它们毫无帮助，无法打开思路，无法带来启发，无法引领我们走向有趣的地方，无法让我们意识到自身的力量，也无法帮助我们提出真正重要的问题。而这一切，都始于我们拒绝接受别人告诉我们的那些故事，开始讲述我们自己的故事，成为故事的讲述者，而不是被告知该做什么的人。</p><p> [<em>音乐：Miaou 的《希望》</em> ]</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>我非常赞同您对“公共生活”的敬重。而且，我认为近几代人以来，我们往往把公共生活狭隘地等同于政治生活，但现在我们应该更广泛地理解它的含义。您说过，公共生活能拓展人的视野，赋予人目标和意义。我想表达的是，[<em>笑</em>]也许这个比喻更贴切。我的意思是，我们正处于总统大选年，这真是令人困惑、混乱不堪。而且——房间里充满了愤怒。我这么说的目的是什么呢？我不想把它比作自然灾害，但您说过[<em>笑</em>]我觉得我心里就是这么想的。[<em>笑</em>]</p><p><b>索尔尼特女士：</b>哦，去吧，去做吧。[<em>笑</em>]</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b> ……但您说过，就像在自然灾害之中，会涌现出一种喜悦。所以，一方面，我们看到这样一场景象——我想，我可以肯定地说——总统选举或许并非我们任何人所希望的那样。但请告诉我，你现在在公共生活中从哪里感受到喜悦？而这或许与政治无关。</p><p><b>索尔尼特女士：</b>是的，我完全同意。我们需要更广义的公共生活观念，它是一种归属感，我指的是对某个地方的归属感，我指的是实际存在的场所，比如树木、鸟类、天气，海岸线，或者……</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>人民。</p><p><b>索尔尼特女士：</b> ……无论是山丘还是农田，还有那里的人们和各种机构。这也是我热爱新奥尔良的原因之一。人们每天都在真诚地交流互动。而有时住在旧金山湾区，感觉就像身处一部僵尸电影里。每个人都像行尸走肉般，低头盯着手机。没有人真正投入到手机所展现的那个私密世界。但你刚才的描述很有意思，因为我觉得那里有一种忘我的境界，一种拥有共同点的感觉，这种感觉在灾难来临时会带来一丝慰藉。当然，总统选举则恰恰相反。它充斥着党派之争，以及一种根深蒂固的“我是对的，你是错的”的执念。还有无休止的争吵。</p><p>蒂佩特女士：不过，先把这些放在一边，因为我觉得这对你我来说都不太令人愉快。那么，你现在在公共生活中从哪里找到了快乐呢？从更宏观的角度来看，关于我们是谁，我们能做什么，以及我们当下所处的时刻——你经常谈到——你想从哪里寻找答案？你说：“每当我环顾四周，我都会思考哪些旧事物即将结出果实，哪些看似稳固的制度可能很快就会瓦解，以及我们现在播下的种子，它们会在未来某个不可预知的时刻收获什么。”那么，你现在最感兴趣的是什么呢？</p><p><b>索尔尼特女士：</b>十年前，气候运动还处于萌芽阶段，影响力微乎其微。当时我在巴黎参加气候大会……如今，它已发展成为全球性的、强大的、卓越的、创新的气候运动。非凡的变革正在发生，真正的转变正在发生。十年前，我们甚至没有能源选择。我们不像现在这样拥有化石燃料的良好替代品，比如苏格兰正在逐步实现100%无化石能源发电。所有这些非凡的变革都在发生。因此，我们正处于一场真正的能源革命之中，这是一场意识的演变——一场关于事物运作方式以及它们之间相互联系的革命。这其中蕴含着一种深刻的美，不仅体现在我一些朋友的卓越贡献上，更体现在创造力、激情以及对弱势群体……对世界、对自然世界的真挚关爱上。体现在对系统秩序的感知上——天气模式、海平面、冬季等自然规律的秩序。而且……</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：（</b><em>笑</em>）是啊，比如冬天。是啊……</p><p><b>索尔尼特女士：</b>是啊，是啊。以前的冬天——以前的冬春两季，鸟类迁徙与花朵盛开、昆虫孵化等等都相得益彰。而当我们面对气候变化时，我们意识到的是这种无限的复杂性，它本身就蕴含着一种美丽的秩序。而现在，它正在……陷入混乱。所以，我——这场运动中的爱、智慧、激情和创造力，仅此而已——我还有很多话想说，但现在，这真的太令人兴奋了。它正在协商，正在协商。对我来说，这就是希望的意义所在。它不是说“哦，我们可以假装一切都会好起来，我们会解决所有问题，让一切仿佛从未发生过。”它真正想说的是，最好的情况和最坏的情况之间的区别，就在于菲律宾人民能否生存下去。我们希望北极地区的人们能够保留一些他们原有的生活方式，我们将竭尽全力争取最好的结果，而不是最坏的结果。我们不抱任何幻想，不认为一切会奇迹般地好转，仿佛从未发生过。这种坚韧不拔的精神，这种务实的理想主义，也同样令人钦佩。</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>那种坚韧不拔的希望。</p><p><b>索尔尼特女士：</b>正是如此。</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>我想你会用这个词来形容它。</p><p><b>索尔尼特女士：</b>希望是艰难的。不确定比确定更难熬。冒险比安稳更难。因此，希望常常被视为软弱的表现，因为它很脆弱，但要敞开心扉接受各种可能性，就需要勇气。我感兴趣的是，是什么赋予了人们这种力量？是什么样的故事、什么样的疑问、什么样的回忆、什么样的对话，以及什么样的自我认知和对周围世界的感知？</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>嗯。我们已经过了——嗯，大概一分钟多了。我只想问你最后一个问题。</p><p><b>索尔尼特女士：</b>好的。</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>这真是个大问题。但你会从哪里开始思考这个问题呢？在你写作和交谈的当下，你对“人性”的理解是如何演变的？它呈现出哪些你十年前，或者在你15岁痛苦不堪时，可能从未预料到的轮廓？[<em>笑</em>]</p><p><b>索尔尼特女士：（</b><em>笑</em>）是啊。我小时候很孤僻，哥哥们在我做女孩子喜欢做的事情时会嘲笑我，所以我不太擅长做女孩子喜欢做的事情。因此，我不太擅长和其他女孩交往。</p><p>我以前就是个怪小孩，整天埋头读书。诸如此类。我现在身边都是很棒的人，我们之间有着很深厚的感情。这让我感到无比满足。这一切都太神奇了。我想我们很多人都希望能够给曾经郁郁寡欢的自己寄明信片。我一直觉得“一切都会好起来”这个针对LGBTQ+青少年的活动应该扩大范围，因为对我们很多人来说，情况确实会好起来。</p><p>我妈总是用她那不怎么鼓励我的方式，在我得大奖的时候说：“这真是太出乎我的意料了。你以前可是个不起眼的小家伙。”[<em>笑</em>] 但确实有点出乎意料。能够参与其中，真正地帮助别人，做一些真正有意义的工作，这种感觉非常奇妙。这一切都让我感到无比惊讶。</p><p> [<em>音乐：兰德尔的《水烟》</em> ]</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>丽贝卡·索尔尼特是<em>《哈珀斯杂志》</em>的特约编辑，也是<em>《卫报》</em>和<em>《伦敦书评》</em>等刊物的定期撰稿人。她著有17本书，包括<em>《地狱中建造的天堂：灾难中崛起的非凡社区》</em>和<em>《黑暗中的希望：不为人知的历史，无限的可能》</em>的新版本。</p><p>我们很高兴地宣布， <em>On Being</em>工作室推出两档全新的短播客节目。下一期<em>《Becoming Wise</em> 》将邀请佛教导师 Sylvia Boorstein 做客，与 Rebecca Solnit 的节目相得益彰。而刚刚上线的《Creating Our Own Lives》（简称 COOL）第一季则探讨了跑步作为一种精神修行方式。您可以在任何播客平台找到<em>《Becoming</em> <em>Wise》</em>和《 <em>Creating</em> <em>Our Own Lives</em> 》。</p><p> [<em>音乐：《图勒》，演唱者：Album Leaf</em> ]</p><p> <em>On Being 的成员</em>包括 Trent Gilliss、Chris Heagle、Lily Percy、Mariah Helgeson、Maia Tarrell、Annie Parsons、Marie Sambilay、Tess Montgomery、Aseel Zahran、Bethanie Kloecker 和 Selena Carlson。</p><p>我们的主要资助伙伴包括：</p><p>福特基金会与世界各地社会变革前线的远见卓识者携手合作，详情请访问 fordfoundation.org。</p><p>费策尔研究所致力于为充满爱的世界构建精神基础。访问 fetzer.org 了解更多信息。</p><p> Kalliopeia 基金会致力于支持那些将敬畏、互惠和韧性融入现代生活结构的组织。</p><p>亨利·卢斯基金会，支持“重新构想公共神学”。</p><p>以及 Osprey 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href="https://www.dailygood.org/story/1322/-iframe-frameborder-no-height-450-scrolling-no-src-https-w-soundcloud-com-player-url-https-3a-api-soundcloud-com-tracks-266046487-and-auto-play-false-and-hide-related-false-and-show-comments-true-and-show-user-true-and-show-reposts-false-and-vi-on-being/?t=showComment&cid=6029" class="ms-auto link-icon text-muted"><i class='fa fa-link'></i></a> </div> <div class="comment-content"> <p>I do understand the central theme but I cant help but recognize the bit of socialism/communism that is lauded as having some postive results in the end. To say that although Russia did not benefit from their communist agenda, other parts of Europe have (from socialism), ignores the horrifc deaths and torture of millions of innocent people at the hands of Stalin. I am not convinced that the end result is positive, be it in Venezuela, Argentina, Cuba, Islamic countries and many others that push their communist, tolitarian way of life. Yes, disasters do bring us together in a positve way but socialism and communism is not a disaster in the same sense. It is a planned ideology. </p> </div> <div class="comment-actions"> <a href="https://www.dailygood.org/story/1322/-iframe-frameborder-no-height-450-scrolling-no-src-https-w-soundcloud-com-player-url-https-3a-api-soundcloud-com-tracks-266046487-and-auto-play-false-and-hide-related-false-and-show-comments-true-and-show-user-true-and-show-reposts-false-and-vi-on-being/?t=showComment&cid=6029#addcomment" class="reply-link" data-cmt-id="6029" data-cmt-author="Joaquin"><i class="bi bi-reply"></i> Reply</a> <span class="btn-light post_btn small"></span> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> <script> $(document).ready(function() { // Toggle between short and full comments $('.see_full_cmt').on('click', function(e) { e.preventDefault(); var cid = $(this).attr('cid'); $('.short_cmt' + cid).hide(); $('.long_cmt' + cid).show(); }); $('.see_short_cmt').on('click', function(e) { e.preventDefault(); var cid = $(this).attr('cid'); $('.long_cmt' + cid).hide(); $('.short_cmt' + cid).show(); }); }); </script> </div>   </div> </div> </div> </div> </section> <script src="js/story.js?2cue"></script>  <footer class="footer"> <div class="container"> <div class="row"> <div class="col-md-5 mb-4 mb-md-0"> <h5 class="footer-title">About DailyGood</h5> <p class="footer-about-text"> For over 29 years, DailyGood has been a volunteer-led movement to share uplifting stories that connect hearts and inspire action — all without ads, agendas, or asks. 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