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<div class="story-meta-left"> <div class="story-logo"> <a href="https://www.dailygood.org"> <img alt="DailyGood" src="https://www.karunanews.org/pics/90x90.jpg"> </a> </div> <div class="story-meta-info"> <div class="story-author">By <a href="/author?name=On%20Being">On Being</a></div> <div class="story-details"> <span class="story-date">Jan 15, 2019</span> <span class="story-read-time">8 min read</span> </div> <div class="story-source">Source: <a href="https://onbeing.org/programs/rachel-naomi-remen-the-difference-between-fixing-and-healing-nov2018/" target="_blank">onbeing.org</a></div> </div> </div>  <div class="story-meta-right">  <div class="utility-buttons"> <div class="dropdown"> <button class="utility-btn translate-btn dropdown-toggle py-1" type="button" id="translationDropdown" data-bs-toggle="dropdown" aria-expanded="false"> <i class="fa fa-language me-2" aria-hidden="true"></i>Cherokee </button> <ul class="dropdown-menu dropdown-menu-end translation-dropdown" 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<div class="dark-link perm_post"> embarrassing part of this story is that I believed this. For the next 15 years, I never questioned this conclusion. I think too great a scientific objectivity can make you blind.</p> <p>MS. TIPPETT: What do you think now?</p> <p>DR. REMEN: I think that that was one of the purist encounters with mystery that I have ever had in my life. It makes me wonder about who we are, what's possible for us, how this world really operates. I have no answers, but I have a lot of questions, and those questions have helped me to live better than any answers I might find.</p> <p>[<em>music: “Hem” by Tvärvägen</em>]</p> <p>MS. TIPPETT: I'm Krista Tippett and this is <em>On Being</em>. Today with Dr. Rachel Naomi Remen.</p> <p>MS. TIPPETT: Something that I found interesting when you write about working with physicians — you try to make them comfortable with loss and to understand that as a part of their jobs, their lives, their working lives. But again, you’re talking about physicians, but you end up making interesting observations that apply to all the rest of us, about loss. Talk to me about what you’ve learned about loss.</p> <p>DR. REMEN: Well, now we’re going to initiate a five-hour… [<em>laughs</em>] Smaller, Krista, make it smaller. [<em>laughs</em>]</p> <p>MS. TIPPETT: Well, alright then. Here’s the sentence that I wrote down: “The way we deal with loss shapes our capacity to be present to life more than anything else. The way we protect ourselves from loss may be the way in which we distance ourselves from life.”</p> <p>DR. REMEN: I think this is absolutely correct.</p> <p>MS. TIPPETT: That is such a shocking thought, really.</p> <p>DR. REMEN: I think it’s correct. I also think that no one is comfortable with loss. Being that we're a technological culture, our wish or our first response to loss is try and fix it. When we are in the presence of a loss that cannot be fixed, which is a great many losses, we feel helpless and uncomfortable and we have a tendency to run away, either emotionally or actually distance ourselves. And fixing is too small a strategy to deal with loss. What we teach the students is something very simple.</p> <p>MS. TIPPETT: The medical students?</p> <p>DR. REMEN: Yeah. We teach them the power of their presence, of simply being there and listening and witnessing another person and caring about another person's loss, letting it matter. We do six hours on loss, two three-hour sessions, and the students have a very simple instruction, which is, they are asked to remember a story of loss from their own lives, and loss — let's put it differently — a time when things didn't go their way, when they were disappointed, when they lost a dream or a relationship or even a family member, a death.</p> <p>They get to choose that, and then they spend six hours in small groups talking about their loss. And the group has one instruction: Listen generously. Now, prior to this exercise, we do another exercise with them where we ask them to remember a time of disappointment and loss and to remember someone who helped them. What did that person do? What did they say? What message did they deliver that was helpful to them at a hard time in their lives? And they write these things down very concretely. Then we ask them to remember a time of loss in their lives and remember someone who wanted to help them but was not of help to them. What did that person do and say, and what message did they deliver, and how did they deliver the message? And they write that down.</p> <p>And then we make a big list. “What are all the things that helped?” “Listened to me for as long as I needed to talk.” “Talked to me in the same way after my loss as they did before my loss.” “Sat with me.” “Touched me.“ “Brought me food.” What were the things that didn't help? “Gave me advice without knowing the full story.” “Made me feel that the loss was my fault.” So we gather up the wisdom about what helps loss to heal from a group of about a hundred students and faculty, and it's all very simple stuff. And the only instruction is: Listen generously.</p> <p>MS. TIPPETT: Again, it takes me back to how we began talking about the power of stories in human lives, and your analogy that the stories are the flesh we put on the bones of the facts about our lives. I think it's so powerful just to think about this obvious fact, but again one of these obvious facts we don't name very often, that loss is not just catastrophic death. There are many different kinds of losses in our lives all the time, and then this kind of stunning idea that you bring forth that the way we deal with those losses, large and small, can really help or get in the way of the way we deal with the rest of our lives, with what we have. Not just what we've lost.</p> <p>DR. REMEN: I think this is so. I really do. How do I put this? Most people try to hold on to the thing that is no longer part of their lives, and they stop themselves in their lives in that way. I have come to see loss as a stage in a process. It's not the bottom line. It's not the end of the story. What happens next is very, very important. And people respond to losses in different ways. When I first became ill, I was enraged. I hated all the well people. I felt that I was a victim and this was unfair. I was angry for about 10 years. I think all of that anger was my will to live expressed in a very negative way.</p> <p>People often are angry in the setting of a terrible loss. They often feel envious of other people, and this is a starting place. But over time things evolve and change. And at the very least, people who have lost a great deal can recognize that they are not victims, they are survivors. They are people who have found the strength to move through something unimaginable to them, perhaps, in the past. And just asking people that question: “You have suffered a really deep loss. What have you called upon for your strength?” Most people haven't even noticed their strength. They're completely focused on their pain.</p> <p>MS. TIPPETT: On their loss.</p> <p>DR. REMEN: On their pain. And isn't that natural, Krista?</p> <p>MS. TIPPETT: There's something very hopeful all the way through your writing, even when it is about loss and the hard, dark side of being human. I mean, you do insist — and I'm not sure that modern psychiatry insists on this — that integrity is achievable for everyone, that you see it come to people, and sometimes it comes to people in crisis. You say wholeness is never lost, it is only forgotten.</p> <p>DR. REMEN: Wholeness includes all of our wounds. It includes all of our vulnerabilities. It is our authentic self, and it doesn't sit in judgment on our wounds or our vulnerabilities. It simply says, “This is the way we connect to one another.” Often we connect through our wounds, through the wisdom we have gained, the growth that has happened to us. Because we have been wounded allows us to be of help to other people. So it's not a moral judgment. Integrity simply means what is true, to live from the place in you that has the greatest truth. And that truth is always evolving as well.</p> <p>[<em>music: “Dawn” by Jacob Montague</em>]</p> <p>MS. TIPPETT: Rachel Naomi Remen is founder of the Remen Institute for the Study of Health and Illness, clinical professor of family medicine at UCSF School of Medicine and professor of family medicine at the Boonshoft School of Medicine at Wright State University. Her beloved books include <em>Kitchen Table Wisdom</em> and <em>My Grandfather's Blessings</em>.</p> <p>STAFF: On<em> Being</em> is Chris Heagle, Lily Percy, Mariah Helgeson, Maia Tarrell, Marie Sambilay, Erinn Farrell, Laurén Dørdal, Tony Liu, Bethany Iverson, Erin Colasacco, Kristin Lin, Profit Idowu, Casper ter Kuile, Angie Thurston, Sue Phillips, Eddie Gonzalez, Lilian Vo, Lucas Johnson, Damon Lee, Suzette Burley, and Katie Gordon.</p> <p>MS. TIPPETT: And in these days around Thanksgiving, we also have a tradition of thanking all the people who make <em>On Being</em> possible behind the scenes. They include:</p> <p>Heather Wang, our transcriber; Brian Carmody, our press liaison; Tom Fletcher, Jim Hessian, and the team at Two Betty’s, partners in our Loring Park space; Jerry Colonna and the wonderful people at Reboot. Kristin Jones Pierre and her team at Faegre Baker Daniels. Heidi Grinde, Mary Warner, Hannah Ericksen, Michele Wagman, and our partners at Clifton Larson Allen, and our outgoing board members Julie Zelle and Jeffrey Walker.</p> <p>[<em>music: “Time” by City of the Sun</em>]</p> <p>We’re also so grateful for Micah Thor, Joe Kessler, and the people of Tech Guru; Emily Oberman and our stellar design partners at Pentagram; Tito Bottitta, Emily Theis, Andy Rader, Holly Copeland, Nick Braica, and all of the team at Upstatement; Keith Yamashita, and the people of SY Partners; and PRX — the Public Radio Exchange — including Kerri Hoffman, John Barth, Kathleen Unwin, Sean Nesbitt, Andrew Kuklewicz, and Paloma Orozco.</p> <p>Special thanks to the 1440 Multiversity and all the people who applied, attended, or enjoyed our recordings from The On Being Gathering — an ongoing community and energy which was a particular joy of this past year.</p> <p>We were also fortunate to partner with a range of extraordinary organizations including the Obama Foundation, the Union for Reform Judaism, The University of Montana–Missoula and Montana Public Radio, the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, ArtReach St. Croix, B’Nai Jeshurun, Women Moving Millions, the St. Paul Chamber Orchestra, the Orange County Department of Education, the Geraldine R. Dodge Poetry Festival, The Solutions Journalism Network, and WNYC Studios’ Werk It Women’s Podcast Festival.</p> <p>[<em>music: “Everything” by City of the Sun</em>]</p> <p>And lastly our beloved wisdom council, Jay Cowles and Konda Mason. Thank you.</p> <p>Our lovely theme music is provided and composed by Zoë Keating. And the last voice that you hear singing our final credits in each show is hip-hop artist Lizzo.</p> <p><em>On Being</em> was created at American Public Media. Our funding partners include:</p> <p>The Fetzer Institute, helping to build the spiritual foundation for a loving world. Find them at fetzer.org.</p> <p>Kalliopeia Foundation, working to create a future where universal spiritual values form the foundation of how we care for our common home.</p> <p>Humanity United, advancing human dignity at home and around the world. Find out more at humanityunited.org, part of the Omidyar Group.</p> <p>The Henry Luce Foundation, in support of Public Theology Reimagined.</p> <p>The Osprey Foundation – a catalyst for empowered, healthy, and fulfilled lives.</p> <p>And the Lilly Endowment, an Indianapolis-based, private family foundation dedicated to its founders’ interests in religion, community development, and education.</p> </div> </div>    <div class="inline-share-icons border-0 mt-0 pt-0"> <div class="d-flex align-items-center"> <span class="me-3 fw-semibold">Share this story:</span> <div> <a href="http://www.facebook.com/sharer.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailygood.org%2Fstory%2F2207%2Fthe-difference-between-fixing-and-healing-on-being%2F" target="_blank" class="share-icon" aria-label="Share on Facebook"> <i class="fab fa-facebook-f"></i> </a> <a href="https://twitter.com/intent/tweet?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailygood.org%2Fstory%2F2207%2Fthe-difference-between-fixing-and-healing-on-being%2F&text=%3Ciframe+frameborder%3D%22no%22+height%3D%22300%22+scrolling%3D%22no%22+src%3D%22https%3A%2F%2Fw.soundcloud.com%2Fplayer%2F%3Furl%3Dhttps%253A%2F%2Fapi.soundcloud.com%2Ftracks%2F533017170%26amp%3Bcolor%3D%2523ff5500%26amp%3Bauto_play%3Dfalse%26amp%3Bhide_related%3Dfalse%26amp%3Bshow_comments%3Dtrue%26amp%3Bshow_user%3Dtrue%26amp%3Bshow_%20%3A%20embarrassing+part+of+this+story+is+that+I+believed+this.+For+the+next+15+years%2C+I+never+questioned+this+conclusion.+I+think+too+great+a+scientific+objectivity+can+make+you+blind.%0D%0A%0D%0AMS.+TIPPETT&via=&hashtags=" target="_blank" class="share-icon" aria-label="Share on Twitter"> <i class="fab fa-twitter"></i> </a> <a href="https://www.linkedin.com/sharing/share-offsite/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailygood.org%2Fstory%2F2207%2Fthe-difference-between-fixing-and-healing-on-being%2F" target="_blank" class="share-icon" aria-label="Share on LinkedIn"> <i class="fab fa-linkedin-in"></i> </a> <a href="https://api.whatsapp.com/send?text=%3Ciframe+frameborder%3D%22no%22+height%3D%22300%22+scrolling%3D%22no%22+src%3D%22https%3A%2F%2Fw.soundcloud.com%2Fplayer%2F%3Furl%3Dhttps%253A%2F%2Fapi.soundcloud.com%2Ftracks%2F533017170%26amp%3Bcolor%3D%2523ff5500%26amp%3Bauto_play%3Dfalse%26amp%3Bhide_related%3Dfalse%26amp%3Bshow_comments%3Dtrue%26amp%3Bshow_user%3Dtrue%26amp%3Bshow_%20%3A%20embarrassing+part+of+this+story+is+that+I+believed+this.+For+the+next+15+years%2C+I+never+questioned+this+conclusion.+I+think+too+great+a+scientific+objectivity+can+make+you+blind.%0D%0A%0D%0AMS.+TIPPETT%20https%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailygood.org%2Fstory%2F2207%2Fthe-difference-between-fixing-and-healing-on-being%2F" target="_blank" class="share-icon d-none d-sm-inline-flex" aria-label="Share on WhatsApp"> <i class="fab fa-whatsapp"></i> </a> </div> </div> </div>   <div class="comments-section mt-3 border-top-0"> <a name="addcomment"></a> <h3 class="h5 pb-2 section-header"> <i class="bi bi-chat-quote text-primary"></i> <span>COMMUNITY REFLECTIONS</span> <hr> </h3> <div class="alert alert-success mb-5" role="alert" id="cmtform_box"> <h5 class="card-title mb-3 fw-bold p-0 fs-2">SHARE YOUR REFLECTION</h5> <form id="comment-form" method="post" action="https://www.dailygood.org/story/2207/the-difference-between-fixing-and-healing-on-being/"> <input type="hidden" name="t" value="addComment"> <input type="hidden" name="story_id" value="2207"> <input type="hidden" name="pcmt_id" id="pcmt_id" value=""> <div id="form-message-container" class="mb-3" style="display:none;"></div> <textarea id="comment_text" name="comment_text" rows="3" class="form-control mb-3" placeholder="Share your thoughts on this story..." required></textarea> <div class="row mt-3"> <div class="col-sm-6"> <div class="input-group mb-3"> <span class="input-group-text"><i class="far fa-user"></i></span> <input type="text" name="comment_name" id="comment_name" value="" class="form-control" placeholder="Your name" required> </div> </div> <div class="col-sm-6"> <div class="input-group mb-3"> <span class="input-group-text"><i class="far fa-envelope"></i></span> <input type="email" name="comment_email" id="comment_email" value="" class="form-control" placeholder="Your email (not published)" required> </div> </div> </div> <div class="d-flex justify-content-between align-items-center mt-3"> <div class="form-check"> <input class="form-check-input" type="checkbox" id="subscribe" name="subscribe" value="1"> <label class="form-check-label" for="subscribe"> Notify me of follow-up comments </label> </div> <div>  <button type="submit" class="btn btn-info px-4 g-recaptcha" data-sitekey="6Ld9FbYpAAAAAGIucyXK_lxDVb-6tDGgPuXN0OPm" data-callback='onSubmit' data-action='submit'> <i class="bi bi-send me-2"></i>Post Comment </button> </div> </div> </form> </div> <script src="https://www.google.com/recaptcha/enterprise.js?render=6Ld9FbYpAAAAAGIucyXK_lxDVb-6tDGgPuXN0OPm"></script> <script> function onSubmit(token) { document.getElementById("comment-form").submit(); }</script> <h3 class="h5 pb-2 section-header mt-5"> <i class="bi bi-people text-success"></i> <span>1 PAST RESPONSES</span> <hr> </h3> <div id="cmtlist" class="mt-4"> <div class="comment-item" id="cmt_7937"> <div class="comment-container"> <div class="comment-avatar"> <img src="https://pod.servicespace.org/pics/mem/blank.jpg" alt="User avatar"> </div> <div class="comment-content-wrapper"> <div class="comment-meta"> <span class="comment-author">Patrick Watters</span> <span class="comment-date">Jan 15, 2019</span> <a href="https://www.dailygood.org/story/2207/-iframe-frameborder-no-height-300-scrolling-no-src-https-w-soundcloud-com-player-url-https-3a-api-soundcloud-com-tracks-533017170-and-color-23ff5500-and-auto-play-false-and-hide-related-false-and-show-comments-true-and-show-user-true-and-show-on-being/?t=showComment&cid=7937" class="ms-auto link-icon text-muted"><i class='fa fa-link'></i></a> </div> <div class="comment-content"> <p>Wise spiritual leaders (sages) know the truth of the true self and that too of the “wounded healer” (Nouwen). }:- 💔~❤️ anonemoose monk</p> </div> <div class="comment-actions"> <a href="https://www.dailygood.org/story/2207/-iframe-frameborder-no-height-300-scrolling-no-src-https-w-soundcloud-com-player-url-https-3a-api-soundcloud-com-tracks-533017170-and-color-23ff5500-and-auto-play-false-and-hide-related-false-and-show-comments-true-and-show-user-true-and-show-on-being/?t=showComment&cid=7937#addcomment" class="reply-link" data-cmt-id="7937" data-cmt-author="Patrick Watters"><i class="bi bi-reply"></i> Reply</a> <span class="btn-light post_btn small"></span> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> <script> $(document).ready(function() { // Toggle between short and full comments $('.see_full_cmt').on('click', function(e) { e.preventDefault(); 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