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<div class="story-meta-left"> <div class="story-logo"> <a href="https://www.dailygood.org"> <img alt="DailyGood" src="https://www.karunanews.org/pics/90x90.jpg"> </a> </div> <div class="story-meta-info"> <div class="story-author">By <a href="/author?name=On%20Being">On Being</a></div> <div class="story-details"> <span class="story-date">May 28, 2019</span> <span class="story-read-time">1 min read</span> </div> <div class="story-source">Source: <a href="https://onbeing.org/programs/wangari-maathai-marching-with-trees/" target="_blank">onbeing.org</a></div> </div> </div>  <div class="story-meta-right">  <div class="utility-buttons"> <div class="dropdown"> <button class="utility-btn translate-btn dropdown-toggle py-1" type="button" id="translationDropdown" data-bs-toggle="dropdown" aria-expanded="false"> <i class="fa fa-language me-2" aria-hidden="true"></i>Chinese (PRC) </button> <ul class="dropdown-menu dropdown-menu-end translation-dropdown" aria-labelledby="translationDropdown" 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target="_blank" class="share-icon d-none d-sm-inline-flex" aria-label="Share on WhatsApp"> <i class="fab fa-whatsapp"></i> </a> </div> </div> </div>  <div class="story-content" id="dg_story"> <div class="dark-link perm_post"> 电视上，一旦某个地方发生冲突，我们很快就会说需要维和部队；而这些维和部队的士兵往往来自和平地区。所以，你突然意识到，你或许身处和平之中，但你的儿子或丈夫却要去维护和平，去一个和平受到威胁的地方。因此，无论贫富，这都成了我们所有人真正关心的重要问题。</p><p>最近我去了一趟日本。我很幸运地接触到了“勿体い”（mottainai）这个词，这是一个根深蒂固于日本文化的佛教概念，它鼓励人们不要浪费资源。他们告诉我，这一点尤其如此……</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>这是一个精神层面的概念。</p><p><b>玛塔伊女士：</b>是的，这是一个精神层面的概念。事实上，这个概念是一位僧人告诉我的。我想他叫森和尚，来自京都的一座寺庙。我们去拜访他，他之前听我公开使用过这个词，他说：“我很高兴你使用‘勿体ない’这个词，因为日本人现在很少用这个词了，他们觉得不好意思说不要浪费资源，因为他们拥有的资源太多了——或者说，不好意思说要心怀感恩地接受资源，心怀感恩地接受大地母亲或大自然的馈赠。我们通常不会想到这一点。我们通常不会感谢大自然给予我们的一切。”</p><p>他让我想起了基督教的理念：让我们成为环境和资源的守护者，而不是……</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b> “管家精神”是一个很好的基督教词汇。</p><p><b>马塔伊女士：</b>是的，管家精神。我很高兴现在的神学家们越来越鼓励我们把自己看作是守护者、管家，而不是专横跋扈的主人。所以，这番话出自日本这样的国家，真的非常非常……</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>这很有意思。</p><p><b>马塔伊女士：</b>这非常有趣，而且非常好。我很高兴，因为这是他们创造的词汇，当我开始使用它时，他们说：“哦，这太棒了。”我说：“是的。”尤其是在像美国这样的工业化国家，你们拥有技术、资金和技能，你们可以利用技术回收大量资源，而不是浪费它们，从而帮助节约世界上正在消耗的资源。但是，如果你变得浪费，如果你不知感恩，如果你不回收利用——因为既然可以买到更多，为什么要回收利用呢？——你必须始终记住：世界上还有数十亿人连生存都成问题，更别提决定是减少浪费还是重复利用了。</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>人们很难相信这数十亿人能对日常生活中关于是否回收利用的微小决定产生影响。</p><p><b>玛塔伊女士：</b>正是如此。他们看起来遥远，是因为我们通常看不到他们的脸，除非他们临终之际，他们的面容出现在我们客厅的电视屏幕上。然后我们很快就打电话给我们的代表，告诉他们：“请为世界上这个角落里死去的人们做点什么。”但这种情况却一直在发生。</p><p> [<em>音乐：阿里·法尔卡·图雷的《五重奏六》</em> ]</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>我是克丽斯塔·蒂佩特，这里是<em>《论存在》</em> 。今天，我将播出我与已故诺贝尔和平奖得主旺加里·马塔伊的珍贵对话。肯尼亚前统治者丹尼尔·阿拉普·莫伊曾公开称她为疯子。她曾因抗议非法伐木和土地掠夺而被捕并遭到殴打，也曾因领导一场历史性的妇女游行，要求释放被关押在丹尼尔·阿拉普·莫伊政治监狱中的儿子而被捕。</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>您的很多作品都与女性相关，您也写了很多关于男女权力平衡的文章。我想问的是，您是否认为男女权力平衡也是一个可持续发展问题？</p><p><b>玛塔伊女士：</b>事实是，我们本身就是一种资源。我们是人力资源。我们面临的最大问题，尤其是在妇女运动中，是如何说服另一半人，我们是非常重要的资源，我们做出了巨大的贡献，因此我们应该受到尊重，我们应该得到赞赏，我们的工作应该被量化，我们应该得到报酬，我们不应该被视为理所当然。不幸的是，30年前，也就是1975年，正如我之前所说，当我们开会准备去墨西哥时，我们去那里是因为我们想……</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>为了联合国妇女大会，第一次。</p><p><b>玛塔伊女士：</b> ……第一届妇女大会。正是在那次会议上，我们宣布了“妇女十年”。显然，我们取得了巨大的进步，我们应该为这些进步感到非常非常自豪。但不可否认的是，在许多社会中，女性仍然是一种被严重低估的资源。我亲眼目睹了女性，甚至是非常有能力的女性，是如何迅速地成为政治权宜之计的牺牲品。</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>这句话很有分量。这些年来，并非全是植树造林的欢乐仪式。我知道您曾遭受嘲讽、追捕和殴打。您曾勇敢地对抗强大的势力。这一切开始之初，您也未曾料到它会发展到如此规模，您会创立如此伟大的运动，您会荣获诺贝尔和平奖。是什么让您坚持了下来？在最艰难的时刻，您依靠的是什么？</p><p><b>马塔伊女士：</b>现在，我再次强调，正是这段经历以及受有信仰的人们的塑造，对我产生了巨大的影响——虽然我当时并没有公开宣称自己的信仰，但我确信自己内心深处有着想要做正确之事的道德信念。我如此确信自己做的是正确的，因为我看得清清楚楚。这显而易见。甚至那些迫害我的人也知道，而且我知道他们也知道。</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>你知道自己做的是对的吗？</p><p><b>马塔伊女士：</b>是的，他们知道我做的是对的，但他们不想让我这么做，因为这会给他们带来不便。我知道这一点，人们有权享有清洁的饮用水。所以，任何污染水源的人都知道自己做错了，知道自己不应该这样做。任何干扰堤坝集水区，导致部分堤坝干涸的人，都知道自己做错了。因为他这样做是为了中饱私囊，他利用公众委托给他的资源中饱私囊，他知道公众并不知情，即使知情，也不敢质疑他。所以，当我质疑他时，他可以肆意恐吓，肆意嘲笑我，因为我孤立无援。但我始终坚信自己是对的，他也知道这一点。</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>现在，我听来，你一直认为即使在那些人心中，也存在着道德、良知，或者说，存在着一种能力，能够看到你所看到的关于什么是正确的事情。</p><p><b>马塔伊女士：</b>这太明显了，人们不可能看不出来。</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>是啊，但你也可以选择完全否定这些人，与他们对抗，甚至宣称他们是邪恶的。你明白我的意思吗？</p><p><b>玛塔伊女士：</b>但我无力对他们采取任何行动。他们才有权力。所以他们可以逮捕我，把我关进监狱，公开羞辱我。他们有权力，我没有权力，我什么都做不了。所以我唯一的选择就是与这些普通民众一起工作，尝试教导他们。起初，我并没有进行任何教导。但渐渐地，当我看到人们因为无知而被人欺压时，我开始阅读《圣经》，尤其是何西阿书……</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>解读先知？</p><p><b>马塔伊女士：</b>是的，先知。我想知道，当这些事情发生时，先知们都做了些什么？我读过《何西阿书》。有时，阅读这些古老的圣经故事会让人着迷——而且有时，你读到的故事几乎在我们所生活的世界里重现。例如，我经常读《何西阿书》，它讲述了一位先知被派往以色列人那里，告诉他们他们将会灭亡，因为他们太无知了。他说：“你们无知，甚至祭司也无知，你们不听从耶和华的指示，所以你们将会灭亡。”</p><p>我亲眼目睹了我们的人民因为无知而走向灭亡。他们不明白他们面临的问题与脚下正在发生的环境恶化之间的联系。</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>这也是一个有趣的模式，因为先知们所做的，从某种意义上说，你们所做的，是为了自己的人民而抨击他们。</p><p><b>马塔伊女士：</b>是的，告诉他们——睁开你们的眼睛看看，我们正在做的事情非常非常重要。不要被吓倒；不要被那些掌权者说服，因为无论他们做什么，都是在损害你们和你们孩子的利益。所以，看在上帝的份上，至少种些树吧。种树不会伤害任何人。你不会伤害他们。但我知道他们不喜欢我的做法。</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>植树造林是一种生态形式的公民不服从行为。</p><p><b>马塔伊女士：</b>的确如此。的确如此。而且，的确，它一次又一次地成为了我们反抗的象征。例如，我们想要保护那些当权者正在私有化的森林。比如，我记得我们曾为了卡鲁拉森林发生过一场激烈的斗争，它靠近——实际上就在内罗毕境内，它基本上是内罗毕的土地，相当于纽约的中央公园。他们想砍伐这片森林，盖起住宅。我说：“你们疯了吗？你们需要这片森林。”他们说：“我们不需要森林；我们需要房子。”现在，你告诉我。</p><p>所以我们会带着树苗，列队走向森林，告诉大家我们来植树。通常情况下，一群女人植树不会有人在意，但因为我们是朝着这片森林走去，我们实际上是在说：你们不能砍伐这片森林，不能在这片森林里建住宅，因为这片森林是城市需要的。</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>那场战斗你赢了吗？</p><p><b>马塔伊女士：</b>经过多年努力，我们终于赢了，这太好了。感谢上帝，那片小森林还在。</p><p> [<em>音乐：“Brrrlak!”，演唱者：Zap Mama</em> ]</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>我们一开始聊的是成长经历，在你们的文化中，家家户户都有圣地，或者说他们自己建造了圣地。你从小接受天主教教育，后来在你人生最艰难的时刻，你读了先知何西阿的书。</p><p>我想问问你对上帝的理解。你是如何看待上帝的——这很难回答——我通常不会直接问别人这样的问题，但我很好奇你的回答。你与树木相关的工作，你所做的一切，你所经历的斗争，以及你对民主空间重要性的新认识，所有这些是如何融入你对这些重大宗教问题的理解的？</p><p><b>马塔伊女士：</b>我在内里的一所天主教学校读小学时，实际上是由来自米兰的安慰会修女们教我的。顺便说一句，她们的创始人最近被册封为真福，所以她们走在正确的道路上。当时，我必须说，宗教对上帝的呈现方式非常肤浅，因为上帝是以米开朗基罗在西斯廷教堂的壁画中描绘的形象呈现给我们的。所以，我认为，当时对上帝的呈现非常肤浅，几乎就像对待一个普通人一样。作为一个年轻人，你几乎会觉得，是啊，上帝在罗马的某个地方，或者在天空的某个地方，在云层里。当然，你也记得我的家庭背景。我早已与我的家庭背景疏远，因为我的父母已经皈依了基督教。</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>源自基库尤文化。</p><p><b>马塔伊女士：</b>是的。但始终存在着这样一种影响，例如，他们相信上帝居住在肯尼亚山上，他们对肯尼亚山怀有极大的敬畏。因此，在我的环保主义实践中，我经常会思考我的祖先向我阐述的上帝形象，以及传教士向我阐述的上帝形象这两种概念。</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>所以，是西斯廷教堂还是肯尼亚山？</p><p><b>马塔伊女士：</b>是的。那么，上帝在哪里呢？我告诉自己，当然，我们现在身处一个全新的时代，我们正在学习如何在上帝身上找到祂，不是在某个地方，而是在我们自身、在彼此之间、在自然之中。从很多方面来看，这都是自相矛盾的，因为教会教导我们上帝是无所不在的。如果祂是无所不在的，祂就应该在罗马，但如果祂是无所不在的，祂也可以同时在肯尼亚。</p><p>所以，我对上帝的认知发生了转变。我仍然坚信祂的力量。祂的形状、大小、颜色，我一无所知。但你会受到所听所见的影响。然而，当我仰望肯尼亚山时，它如此雄伟壮丽，如此震撼人心。它对我所在地区的生命至关重要，以至于我有时会说，是的，上帝就在这座山上。</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>非常感谢您，旺加里·马塔伊。</p><p><b>马塔伊女士：</b>非常欢迎。</p><p> [<em>音乐：Toumani Diabate 的《Elyne Road》</em> ]</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>在我们结束这次谈话时，旺加里·马塔伊为我演唱了一首来自绿带运动的歌曲。</p><p><b>玛塔伊女士：</b>这种歌曲非常合适，因为我们出行时总是希望环境平和宁静。所以唱宗教歌曲是很常见的。歌词里说，没有哪位神能与他相比，没有哪位神能像他那样慈爱，也没有哪位神能像他那样拥有强大的力量。</p><p> [<em>旺加里·马塔伊用斯瓦希里语唱歌</em>]</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b>旺加里·马塔伊创立了全球绿带运动，该运动迄今已促成超过5200万棵树的种植。她是2004年诺贝尔和平奖的获得者。她于2011年9月25日因癌症去世，享年71岁。她的著作包括回忆录《不屈不挠》 <em>（Unbowed</em> ）和<em>《滋养地球：疗愈自身与世界的精神价值》（Replenishing the Earth: Spiritual Values for Healing Ourselves and the World</em> ）。她也是<em>《给叛逆女孩的晚安故事》（Good Night Stories for Rebel Girls）一书中介绍的100位杰出女性之一。</em></p><p> [<em>音乐：Evenings 的《Still Young》</em> ]</p><p><b>工作人员：</b> On Being 的成员包括 Chris Heagle、Lily Percy、Maia Tarrell、Marie Sambilay、Erinn Farrell、Laurén Dørdal、Tony Liu、Bethany Iverson、Erin Colasacco、Kristin Lin、Profit Idowu、Casper ter Kuile、Angie Thurston、Sue Phillips、Eddie Gonzalez、Lilian Vo、Lucas Johnson、Damon Lee、Suzette Burley、Katie Gordon、Zack Rose 和 Serri Graslie。</p><p><b>蒂佩特女士：</b> “存在之道”项目位于达科他保留地。我们优美的主题音乐由佐伊·基廷创作并演唱。节目结尾您听到的最后一个歌声来自卡梅伦·金霍恩。</p><p> <em>《On Being》</em>由美国公共媒体制作。我们的资助伙伴包括：</p><p>约翰·邓普顿基金会运用科学的力量，探索人类面临的最深刻、最令人困惑的问题。访问<a href="http://templeton.org/discoveries">templeton.org/discoveries</a> ，了解有关慷慨、感恩和人生意义的前沿科学研究。</p><p>乔治家族基金会支持公民对话项目。</p><p>费策尔研究所致力于为充满爱的世界奠定精神基础。访问<a href="http://fetzer.org/">fetzer.org</a>了解更多信息。</p><p> Kalliopeia 基金会致力于创造一个以普世精神价值观为基础，关爱我们共同家园的未来。</p><p> Humanity United 致力于在国内和世界各地提升人类尊严。了解更多信息，请访问<a href="http://humanityunited.org/">humanityunited.org</a> ，该组织隶属于奥米迪亚集团。</p><p>乔治家族基金会支持公民对话项目。</p><p>亨利·卢斯基金会支持“重新构想公共神学”。</p><p>鱼鹰基金会——致力于促进人们拥有充满力量、健康和充实的生活。</p><p>还有礼来基金会，这是一个总部位于印第安纳波利斯的私人家族基金会，致力于其创始人对宗教、社区发展和教育的兴趣。</p><p></p> </div> </div>    <div class="inline-share-icons border-0 mt-0 pt-0"> <div class="d-flex align-items-center"> <span class="me-3 fw-semibold">Share this story:</span> <div> <a 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