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Back to Stories
Interview with Robin Wall Kimerrer
</ifram</h1> <!-- Lens Notice Banner (when viewing an AI-generated retelling) --> <!-- Story Meta Container --> <div class="story-meta-container pb-3"> <!-- Left Side - Logo, Author, Details --> <div class="story-meta-left"> <div class="story-logo"> <a href="https://www.dailygood.org"> <img alt="DailyGood" src="https://www.karunanews.org/pics/90x90.jpg"> </a> </div> <div class="story-meta-info"> <div class="story-author">By <a href="/author?name=On%20Being">On Being</a></div> <div class="story-details"> <span class="story-date">Apr 22, 2016</span> <span class="story-read-time">10 min read</span> </div> <div class="story-source">Source: <a href="http://www.onbeing.org/program/robin-wall-kimmerer-the-intelligence-in-all-kinds-of-life/transcript/8467" target="_blank">onbeing.org</a></div> </div> </div> <!-- Right Side - Utility Buttons and Share --> <div class="story-meta-right"> <!-- Utility Buttons (Listen, Translate) --> <div class="utility-buttons"> <div class="dropdown"> <button 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class="story-content" id="dg_story"> <div class="dark-link perm_post"> there is language, and there’s a mentality about taking that actually seemed to have kind of a religious blessing on it. And now people are reading those same texts differently. Do you ever have those conversations with people? Because the tradition you come from would never, ever have read the text that way. So we’re — culturally, we are incrementally moving more towards the worldview that you come from.</p> <p>DR. KIMMERER: I think that that’s true, and I think that that longing and the materiality of the need for redefining our relationship with place is being taught to us by the land, isn’t it? We’ve seen that, in a way, we’ve been captured by a worldview of dominion that does not serve our species well in the long term, and, moreover, it doesn’t serve all the other beings in creation well at all.</p> <p>And so we are attempting a mid-course correction here. And I think that’s really important to recognize, that for most of human history, I think the evidence suggests that we have lived well and in balance with the living world. And it’s, to my way of thinking, almost an eyeblink of time in human history that we have had a truly adversarial relationship with nature.</p> <p>MS. TIPPETT: And so it seems to me that this view that you have of the natural world and our place in it, it’s a way to think about biodiversity and us as part of that, but reciprocity, again, takes that a step farther, right?</p> <p>DR. KIMMERER: Yes. The idea of reciprocity, of recognizing that we humans do have gifts that we can give in return for all that has been given to us is, I think, a really generative and creative way to be a human in the world. And some of our oldest teachings are saying that — what does it mean to be an educated person? It means that you know what your gift is and how to give it on behalf of the land and of the people, just like every single species has its own gift. And if one of those species and the gifts that it carries is missing in biodiversity, the ecosystem is depauperate, the ecosystem is too simple. It doesn’t work as well when that gift is missing.</p> <p>MS. TIPPETT: Here’s something you wrote. You wrote — you talked about goldenrods and asters a minute ago, and you said, “When I am in their presence, their beauty asks me for reciprocity, to be the complimentary color, to make something beautiful in response.”</p> <p>DR. KIMMERER: Yes. And I think of my writing very tangibly as my way of entering into reciprocity with the living world. It’s that which I can give and it comes from my years as a scientist, of deep paying attention to the living world, and not only to their names, but to their songs. And having heard those songs, I feel a deep responsibility to share them, and to see if, in some way, stories could help people fall in love with the world again.</p> <p>[<em>music: “Bowen” by Goldmund</em>]</p> <p>MS. TIPPETT: I’m Krista Tippett and this is <em>On Being</em>. Today I’m with botanist and nature writer Robin Wall Kimmerer.</p> <p>MS. TIPPETT: You remain a professor of environmental biology...</p> <p>DR. KIMMERER: That’s right.</p> <p>MS. TIPPETT: ...at SUNY, and you have also created this Center for Native Peoples and the Environment. So you’re also — that’s also a gift you’re bringing. You’re bringing these disciplines into conversation with each other. I wonder, what is happening in that conversation? How is that working, and are there things happening that surprise you?</p> <p>DR. KIMMERER: Yes. What we’re trying to do at the Center For Native Peoples and the Environment is to bring together the tools of Western science, but to employ them, or maybe deploy them, in the context of some of the indigenous philosophy and ethical frameworks about our relationship to the earth. One of the things that I would especially like to highlight about that is I really think of our work as, in a sense, trying to indigenize science education within the academy. Because as a young person, as a student entering into that world, and understanding that the indigenous ways of knowing, these organic ways of knowing, are really absent from academia, I think that we can train better scientists, train better environmental professionals when there’s a plurality of these ways of knowing, when indigenous knowledge is present in the discussion.</p> <p>So we have created a new minor in indigenous peoples and the environment, so that when our students leave and when our students graduate, they have an awareness of other ways of knowing, they have this glimpse into a worldview which is really different from the scientific worldview. So I think of them as just being stronger and have this ability for what has been called “two-eyed seeing,” seeing the world through both of these lenses, and in that way, have a bigger toolset for environmental problem-solving.</p> <p>So much of what we do as environmental scientists — if we take a strictly scientific approach, we have to exclude values and ethics, right? Because those are not part of the scientific method. There’s good reason for that, and much of the power of the scientific method comes from the rationality and the objectivity. But a lot of the problems that we face in terms of sustainability and environment lie at the juncture of nature and culture. So we can’t just rely on a single way of knowing that explicitly excludes values and ethics. That’s not going to move us forward.</p> <p>MS. TIPPETT: I know this is a fairly new program, but I wonder, are you seeing students take up this task of creating synergy? And I think you’ve used the word “symbiosis,” or this two-eyed seeing. Are you seeing results that are interesting about how people are applying this, or where they are taking it? Or is it just too early for that?</p> <p>DR. KIMMERER: Well, it’s too early to see it, I think, in what those scientific and professional metrics, if you will. But what I see is that the students who have become acquainted with these ways of knowing are the natural disseminators of these ideas. They tell me that when they’re taking their other classes in conservation biology or wildlife ecology or fisheries, they now feel like they have the vocabulary and the perspective to speak up and say, well, when we’re designing this salmon management plan, what is the input of native peoples? How will their traditional knowledge help us do better fisheries management? The invisible knowledge of traditional knowledge has become visible and has become part of the discourse.</p> <p>MS. TIPPETT: In your book <em>Braiding Sweetgrass</em>, there’s this line: “It came to me while picking beans, the secret of happiness.” [<em>laughs</em>] And you talk about gardening, which is actually something that many people do, and I think more people are doing. So that’s a very concrete way of illustrating this.</p> <p>DR. KIMMERER: It is. In talking with my environment students, they wholeheartedly agree that they love the earth. But when I ask them the question of does the earth love you back, there’s a great deal of hesitation and reluctance and eyes cast down, like, oh, gosh, I don’t know. Are we even allowed to talk about that? That would mean that the earth had agency and that I was not an anonymous little blip on the landscape, that I was known by my home place.</p> <p>So it’s a very challenging notion, but I bring it to the garden and think about the way that when we, as human people, demonstrate our love for one another, it is in ways that I find very much analogous to the way that the earth takes care of us, is when we love somebody, we put their wellbeing at the top of a list and we want to feed them well. We want to nurture them. We want to teach them. We want to bring beauty into their lives. We want to make them comfortable and safe and healthy. That’s how I demonstrate love, in part, to my family, and that’s just what I feel in the garden, as the earth loves us back in beans and corn and strawberries. Food could taste bad. It could be bland and boring, but it isn’t. There are these wonderful gifts that the plant beings, to my mind, have shared with us. And it’s a really liberating idea to think that the earth could love us back, but it’s also the notion that — it opens the notion of reciprocity that with that love and regard from the earth comes a real deep responsibility.</p> <p>MS. TIPPETT: Yeah. What is it you say? “The large framework of that is the renewal of the world for the privilege of breath.” I think that’s right on the edge.</p> <p>DR. KIMMERER: Yes.</p> <p>MS. TIPPETT: I’m thinking of how, for all the public debates we have about our relationship with the natural world, and whether it’s climate change or not, or man-made, there’s also the reality that very few people living anywhere don’t have some experience of the natural world changing in ways that they often don’t recognize. And in all kinds of places with all kinds of political cultures, where I see people just getting together and doing the work that needs to be done, and becoming stewards, however they justify that or however they — wherever they fit into the public debates or not, a kind of common denominator is that they have discovered a love for the place they come from. And that that they share. And they may have these same kinds of political differences that are out there, but there’s this love of place, and that creates a different world of action. Are there communities that you think of when you think of this kind of communal love of place where you see new models happening?</p> <p>DR. KIMMERER: There are many, many examples. I think so many of them are rooted in the food movement. I think that’s really exciting because there is a place where reciprocity between people and the land is expressed in food, and who doesn’t want that? It’s good for people. It’s good for land. So I think movements from tree planting to community gardens, farm-to-school, local, organic — all of these things are just at the right scale, because the benefits come directly into you and to your family, and the benefits of your relationships to land are manifest right in your community, right in your patch of soil and what you’re putting on your plate. Just as the land shares food with us, we share food with each other and then contribute to the flourishing of that place that feeds us.</p> <p>MS. TIPPETT: Yeah. I want to read something from — I’m sure this is from <em>Braiding Sweetgrass</em>. You wrote, “We are all bound by a covenant of reciprocity. Plant breath for animal breath, winter and summer, predator and prey, grass and fire, night and day, living and dying. Our elders say that ceremony is the way we can remember to remember. In the dance of the giveaway, remember that the earth is a gift we must pass on just as it came to us. When we forget, the dances we’ll need will be for mourning, for the passing of polar bears, the silence of cranes, for the death of rivers, and the memory of snow.”</p> <p>That’s one of the hard places you’re — this world you straddle brings you to. But, again, all these things you live with and learn, how do they start to shift the way you think about what it means to be human?</p> <p>DR. KIMMERER: The passage that you just read, and all of the experience, I suppose, that flows into that has, as I’ve gotten older, brought me to a really acute sense, not only of the beauty of the world, but the grief that we feel for it, for her, for ki. That we can’t have an awareness of the beauty of the world without also a tremendous awareness of the wounds. That we see the old growth forest and we also see the clear cut. We see the beautiful mountain and we see it torn open for mountaintop removal. And so one of the things that I continue to learn about and need to learn more about is the transformation of love to grief to even stronger love and the interplay of love and grief that we feel for the world. And how to harness the power of those related impulses is something that I have had to learn.</p> <p>[<em>music: “If I’d Have Known It Was the Last (Second Position)” by Codes In the Clouds</em>]</p> <p>MS. TIPPETT: Robin Wall Kimmerer is the State University of New York Distinguished Teaching Professor at the SUNY College of Environmental Science and Forestry in Syracuse. And she’s founding director of the Center for Native Peoples and the Environment. Her books include <em>Gathering Moss: A Natural and Cultural History of </em><em>Mosses</em>and <em>Braiding Sweetgrass: Indigenous Wisdom, Scientific Knowledge, and the Teachings of Plants</em>.</p> <p>At onbeing.org, you can sign up for a weekly email from us, a Letter from Loring Park. In your inbox every Saturday morning — it’s a curated list of the best of what we are reading and publishing, including writings by our weekly columnists. This week, you can read Omid Safi’s essay “Praise Song for Wide Open Spaces.” Find his column and others at onbeing.org.</p> <p>[<em>music: “Hill of Our Home” by Psapp</em>]</p> </div> </div> <!-- Story Credits --> <!-- Original Story Link (if viewing lens) --> <!-- Inline Share Section --> <div class="inline-share-icons border-0 mt-0 pt-0"> <div class="d-flex align-items-center"> <span class="me-3 fw-semibold">Share this story:</span> <div> <a href="http://www.facebook.com/sharer.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailygood.org%2Fstory%2F1270%2Fthe-intelligence-in-all-kinds-of-life-on-being%2F" target="_blank" class="share-icon" aria-label="Share on Facebook"> <i class="fab fa-facebook-f"></i> </a> <a href="https://twitter.com/intent/tweet?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailygood.org%2Fstory%2F1270%2Fthe-intelligence-in-all-kinds-of-life-on-being%2F&text=%3Ch2%3EInterview+with+Robin+Wall+Kimerrer%3C%2Fh2%3E+%3Cp%3E%3C%2Fp%3E+%3Ciframe+frameborder%3D%22no%22+height%3D%22166%22+scrolling%3D%22no%22+src%3D%22https%3A%2F%2Fw.soundcloud.com%2Fplayer%2F%3Furl%3Dhttps%253A%2F%2Fapi.soundcloud.com%2Ftracks%2F248867866%26amp%3Bauto_play%3Dfalse%26amp%3Bcolor%3D00acd6%22+width%3D%22100%25%22%3E%3C%2Fifram%20%3A%20there+is+language%2C+and+there%26rsquo%3Bs+a+mentality+about+taking+that+actually+seemed+to+have+kind+of+a+religious+blessing+on+it.+And+now+people+are+reading+those+same+texts+differently.+Do+you+ever+have&via=&hashtags=" target="_blank" class="share-icon" aria-label="Share on Twitter"> <i class="fab fa-twitter"></i> </a> <a href="https://www.linkedin.com/sharing/share-offsite/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailygood.org%2Fstory%2F1270%2Fthe-intelligence-in-all-kinds-of-life-on-being%2F" target="_blank" class="share-icon" aria-label="Share on LinkedIn"> <i class="fab fa-linkedin-in"></i> </a> <a href="https://api.whatsapp.com/send?text=%3Ch2%3EInterview+with+Robin+Wall+Kimerrer%3C%2Fh2%3E+%3Cp%3E%3C%2Fp%3E+%3Ciframe+frameborder%3D%22no%22+height%3D%22166%22+scrolling%3D%22no%22+src%3D%22https%3A%2F%2Fw.soundcloud.com%2Fplayer%2F%3Furl%3Dhttps%253A%2F%2Fapi.soundcloud.com%2Ftracks%2F248867866%26amp%3Bauto_play%3Dfalse%26amp%3Bcolor%3D00acd6%22+width%3D%22100%25%22%3E%3C%2Fifram%20%3A%20there+is+language%2C+and+there%26rsquo%3Bs+a+mentality+about+taking+that+actually+seemed+to+have+kind+of+a+religious+blessing+on+it.+And+now+people+are+reading+those+same+texts+differently.+Do+you+ever+have%20https%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailygood.org%2Fstory%2F1270%2Fthe-intelligence-in-all-kinds-of-life-on-being%2F" target="_blank" class="share-icon d-none d-sm-inline-flex" aria-label="Share on WhatsApp"> <i class="fab fa-whatsapp"></i> </a> </div> </div> </div> <!-- Awakin Call RSVP section --> <!-- Comments Section --> <div class="comments-section mt-3 border-top-0"> <a name="addcomment"></a> <h3 class="h5 pb-2 section-header"> <i class="bi bi-chat-quote text-primary"></i> <span>COMMUNITY REFLECTIONS</span> <hr> </h3> <div class="alert alert-success mb-5" role="alert" id="cmtform_box"> <h5 class="card-title mb-3 fw-bold p-0 fs-2">SHARE YOUR REFLECTION</h5> <form id="comment-form" method="post" action="https://www.dailygood.org/story/1270/the-intelligence-in-all-kinds-of-life-on-being/"> <input type="hidden" name="t" value="addComment"> <input type="hidden" name="story_id" value="1270"> <input type="hidden" name="pcmt_id" id="pcmt_id" value=""> <div id="form-message-container" class="mb-3" style="display:none;"></div> <textarea id="comment_text" name="comment_text" rows="3" class="form-control mb-3" placeholder="Share your thoughts on this story..." required></textarea> <div class="row mt-3"> <div class="col-sm-6"> <div class="input-group mb-3"> <span class="input-group-text"><i class="far fa-user"></i></span> <input type="text" name="comment_name" id="comment_name" value="" class="form-control" placeholder="Your name" required> </div> </div> <div class="col-sm-6"> <div class="input-group mb-3"> <span class="input-group-text"><i class="far fa-envelope"></i></span> <input type="email" name="comment_email" id="comment_email" value="" class="form-control" placeholder="Your email (not published)" required> </div> </div> </div> <div class="d-flex justify-content-between align-items-center mt-3"> <div class="form-check"> <input class="form-check-input" type="checkbox" id="subscribe" name="subscribe" value="1"> <label class="form-check-label" for="subscribe"> Notify me of follow-up comments </label> </div> <div> <!-- --> <button type="submit" class="btn btn-info px-4 g-recaptcha" data-sitekey="6Ld9FbYpAAAAAGIucyXK_lxDVb-6tDGgPuXN0OPm" data-callback='onSubmit' data-action='submit'> <i class="bi bi-send me-2"></i>Post Comment </button> </div> </div> </form> </div> <script src="https://www.google.com/recaptcha/enterprise.js?render=6Ld9FbYpAAAAAGIucyXK_lxDVb-6tDGgPuXN0OPm"></script> <script> function onSubmit(token) { document.getElementById("comment-form").submit(); }</script> <h3 class="h5 pb-2 section-header mt-5"> <i class="bi bi-people text-success"></i> <span>1 PAST RESPONSES</span> <hr> </h3> <div id="cmtlist" class="mt-4"> <div class="comment-item" id="cmt_5900"> <div class="comment-container"> <div class="comment-avatar"> <img src="https://pod.servicespace.org/pics/mem/blank.jpg" alt="User avatar"> </div> <div class="comment-content-wrapper"> <div class="comment-meta"> <span class="comment-author">Benedict James Malinao</span> <span class="comment-date">Apr 22, 2016</span> <a href="https://www.dailygood.org/story/1270/-h2-interview-with-robin-wall-kimerrer-h2-p-p-iframe-frameborder-no-height-166-scrolling-no-src-https-w-soundcloud-com-player-url-https-3a-api-soundcloud-com-tracks-248867866-and-auto-play-false-and-color-00acd6-width-100-ifram-on-being/?t=showComment&cid=5900" class="ms-auto link-icon text-muted"><i class='fa fa-link'></i></a> </div> <div class="comment-content"> <p>One of my favorites definitely. As a lover of nature, it is quite interesting to think that nature is more interactive, smarter, and more sentient beings that we possibly realize. Makes us love the earth all over again, from a more wholesome perspective. Thanks, DailyGood!</p> </div> <div class="comment-actions"> <a href="https://www.dailygood.org/story/1270/-h2-interview-with-robin-wall-kimerrer-h2-p-p-iframe-frameborder-no-height-166-scrolling-no-src-https-w-soundcloud-com-player-url-https-3a-api-soundcloud-com-tracks-248867866-and-auto-play-false-and-color-00acd6-width-100-ifram-on-being/?t=showComment&cid=5900#addcomment" class="reply-link" data-cmt-id="5900" data-cmt-author="Benedict James Malinao"><i class="bi bi-reply"></i> Reply</a> <span class="btn-light post_btn small"></span> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> <script> $(document).ready(function() { // Toggle between short and full comments $('.see_full_cmt').on('click', function(e) { e.preventDefault(); var cid = $(this).attr('cid'); $('.short_cmt' + cid).hide(); $('.long_cmt' + cid).show(); }); $('.see_short_cmt').on('click', function(e) { e.preventDefault(); var cid = $(this).attr('cid'); $('.long_cmt' + cid).hide(); $('.short_cmt' + cid).show(); }); }); </script> </div> <!-- Related Stories --> <!-- Audio Modal --> </div> </div> </div> </div> </section> <script src="js/story.js?2cue"></script> <!-- Footer --> <footer class="footer"> <div class="container"> <div class="row"> <div class="col-md-5 mb-4 mb-md-0"> <h5 class="footer-title">About DailyGood</h5> <p class="footer-about-text"> For over 29 years, DailyGood has been a volunteer-led movement to share uplifting stories that connect hearts and inspire action — all without ads, agendas, or asks. 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