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Slijedi Audiozapis I Transkript Intervjua Kriste Tippett I dr. Bj Millera Na onbeing.org:
 <div class="story-meta-left"> <div class="story-logo"> <a href="https://www.dailygood.org"> <img alt="DailyGood" src="https://www.karunanews.org/pics/90x90.jpg"> </a> </div> <div class="story-meta-info"> <div class="story-author">By <a href="/author?name=On%20Being">On Being</a></div> <div class="story-details"> <span class="story-date">Apr 4, 2016</span> <span class="story-read-time">12 min read</span> </div> <div class="story-source">Source: <a href="http://www.onbeing.org/program/bj-miller-reframing-our-relationship-to-that-we-don-t-control/transcript/8387" target="_blank">onbeing.org</a></div> </div> </div>  <div class="story-meta-right">  <div class="utility-buttons"> <div class="dropdown"> <button class="utility-btn translate-btn dropdown-toggle py-1" type="button" id="translationDropdown" data-bs-toggle="dropdown" aria-expanded="false"> <i class="fa fa-language me-2" aria-hidden="true"></i>Croatian </button> <ul class="dropdown-menu dropdown-menu-end translation-dropdown" 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href="https://www.linkedin.com/sharing/share-offsite/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailygood.org%2Fstory%2F1257%2Freframing-our-relationship-to-that-we-don-t-control-on-being%2F" target="_blank" class="share-icon" aria-label="Share on LinkedIn"> <i class="fab fa-linkedin-in"></i> </a> <a href="https://api.whatsapp.com/send?text=%3Cp%3ESlijedi+Audiozapis+I+Transkript+Intervjua+Kriste+Tippett+I+dr.+Bj+Millera+Na+onbeing.org%3A+%3C%2Fp%3E%3Cp%3E%3C%2Fp%3E%3Ciframe+frameborder%3D%22no%22+height%3D%22166%22+scrolling%3D%22no%22+src%3D%22https%3A%2F%2Fw.soundcloud.com%2Fplayer%2F%3Furl%3Dhttps%253A%2F%2Fapi.soundcloud.com%2Ftracks%2F244241049%26amp%3Bcolor%3D%20%3A%20onda+sam+mrtav.+I+to+me+vra%C4%87a+ovom+%C5%BEivotu+osjetila+i+neposrednosti+osjetila.+I+jedno+%C5%A1to+znam+jest+da+tijelo+umire.+Ovo+tijelo+umire%2C+a+ovo+tijelo+je+samo+velika+vre%C4%87a+senzora.+Dakle%2C+to+je%20https%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailygood.org%2Fstory%2F1257%2Freframing-our-relationship-to-that-we-don-t-control-on-being%2F" target="_blank" class="share-icon d-none d-sm-inline-flex" aria-label="Share on WhatsApp"> <i class="fab fa-whatsapp"></i> </a> </div> </div> </div>  <div class="story-content" id="dg_story"> <div class="dark-link perm_post"> onda sam mrtav.</p><p> I to me vraća ovom životu osjetila i neposrednosti osjetila. I jedno što znam jest da tijelo umire. Ovo tijelo umire, a ovo tijelo je samo velika vreća senzora. Dakle, to je ta velika petlja za vas.</p><p> GĐA. TIPPETT: O tome smo razgovarali tijekom cijelog razgovora, o pitanju invaliditeta. I samo želim pročitati nešto što ste napisali, jer mislim da je i ovo vrlo fluidno - kako razmišljamo o invaliditetu, kako ga nazivamo. I u vašem životu, u našem životu, ovo je bilo vrlo fluidno. Napisali ste: „Davne 1990. godine tretirali su me kao figuru Frankensteina ili figuru Krista, i to je bilo smiješno u obje krajnosti. Ponekad su mi čestitali što idem na WC. Onda su se negdje usput amputirci činili kao da su se iznenadili i nekolicina ih je izašla i učinila izvanredne stvari, natječući se u Ironman triatlonima, i očekivanja su se promijenila. Ako se nisam popeo na Mount Everest, pao sam.“</p><p> DR. MILLER: Da, te riječi su mi još uvijek vrlo važne.</p><p> GĐA. TIPPETT: I opet, razmišljam o estetici. Ponekad, kada ljudi pišu o vama, koriste jezik - opisuju vas kao "trostruko amputiranu osobu", što je tehnički točno, ali za mene je to jednostavno tako - to vas zapravo ne opisuje. To je vrlo antiseptičan jezik. Stoga me zanima kako razmišljate čak i o jeziku invaliditeta, ali i kako s tim radimo i borimo se s tim.</p><p> DR. MILLER: Ovdje su - zapravo, invaliditet i kronične bolesti bile moj put u hospicij i palijativnu skrb, puno više od smrti, usput rečeno. Ali invaliditet, on nam ukazuje - velika tema za mene još kao preddiplomskog studija i mog diplomskog rada, podstruja je bila moja frustracija jezikom. Da riječi mogu ukazivati na stvari. Znam da i riječi imaju svoj život, ali još uvijek se borim s time koliku snagu riječi imaju.</p><p> GĐA. TIPPETT: Koje su to riječi s kojima se, na primjer, mučite?</p><p> DR. MILLER: Pa, samo cijelo — pa, krenimo s tim da ste pitali o invaliditetu. Mislim, slažem se s tim, ali ono o čemu se nije raspravljalo je, u usporedbi s čime? Koji je referentni okvir? Što je „ne-“? To se podrazumijeva. Možemo se povući i raspravljati o tome, i volim kada ljudi to rade, ali inače jednostavno prihvatite „invaliditet“, da ste manje vrijedni, da se događa nešto patološko. Ali u usporedbi s čime? Dakle, ovaj relativizam jezika i ideja riječi kao putokaza, kao nesavršenih reprodukcija stvarnosti na koju pokušavaju ukazati, samo želim da se to prizna kad god sam u ozbiljnom razgovoru, da su riječi najbolje što imamo, ali su toliko manjkave. Samo mi treba da se to negdje prizna.</p><p> GĐA. TIPPETT: Mislim, to je neka vrsta povratka na tu ideju da svi nosimo sa sobom kakve god oblike patnje i borbe imali, a neki od njih se vide izvana. A one koje nazivamo „invaliditetom“...</p><p> DR. MILLER: Tako je. Opet, „ranjeni iscjelitelj“, „invalid“. Kad bi se svi smatrali invalidima, ja bih bio za. Ista stvar. Sjećam se kada bih išao - nisam to radio godinama, ali išao bih - ljudi bi me pozivali da dođem govoriti u njihovom razredu, školama, često srednjim školama, ili kada bi mi djeca prišla u parku ili nešto slično i rekla, neizbježno, na isti način: „Hej, ne nedostaje li ti imati dvije ruke?“ Neka verzija tog pitanja bi se pojavila, ili „dva stopala?“ ili što god. A ja bih rekao: „Pa, naravno. Da, nedostaje mi. Stvarno mi nedostaju dvije ruke.“ O, Bože, kako mi nedostaju dvije ruke. Mislim, kakva poslastica. Možeš zadržati stopala, ali bih volio - mislim, ruke su izvanredne.</p><p> Ali bih toj djeci rekao: „Da. Pa, ne nedostaje li vam imati troje djece?“ Oni su rekli, što? Samo me nekako čudno gledaju. I ne znam koliko ih je ikada - ne znam je li taj odgovor ikada pomogao ijednom djetetu, ali poanta je bila, ovo je moja stvarnost. Imati jednu ruku je moja potpuna i totalna stvarnost. To nije polovična stvarnost i ne vidim previše dvoručnih koji žale zbog činjenice da nemaju tri ruke. Ipak, to je u osnovi isti odnos prema nečemu što ne možete kontrolirati.</p><p> [ <em>glazba: “Grad svjetla” od Languisa</em> ]</p><p> GĐA. TIPPETT: Ja sam Krista Tippett i ovo je <em>O Biću</em> . Danas, s BJ Millerom iz projekta Zen Hospice u San Franciscu.</p><p> GĐA. TIPPETT: Govorili ste o ljubavi, radosti i velikoj nadi kao iskustvima umiranja kada je sve dobro učinjeno. I pitam se kako biste vi - što velika nada znači na kraju života, kao što ste vi iskusili nadu na kraju života?</p><p> DR. MILLER: Nada je tako smiješna stvar. Toliko je komplicirana stvar. Možemo i naštetiti nadom. To je moćna stvar. Mnogo je podataka o tome zašto neki liječnici ne dijele punu istinu prognoze sa svojim pacijentima - i, neizbježno, čut ćete neku verziju: "Pa, zato što im ne želim oduzeti nadu." I oni znaju da je nada ono što ih ujutro tjera da ustanu iz kreveta i što ih tjera da isprobaju sljedeću terapiju ili što god to bilo. Nada je vrlo moćna stvar. Ali tijekom obuke u palijativnoj skrbi naučio sam, kad god čujem tu riječ, kad god čujem izraz "Nadam se", sada sam obučen pitati, istraživati: "Nadam se čemu?" I to je također relativan fenomen koji treba kontekstualizirati i puno je fluidniji i prilagodljiviji nego što mu mi u zdravstvu često pripisujemo, ili mi ljudi pripisujemo. Čini se kao monolit. Ili imaš nadu ili je nemaš.</p><p> Istina je da možemo promijeniti ono čemu se nadamo. I vidite u palijativnoj skrbi, na primjer, i hospiciju, ta vrsta medicine se dobro provodi kada se odvijaju ovi informirani, vješti razgovori. Čut ćete pružatelje usluga kako rade s nadom osobe, ali je preusmjeravaju. Dakle, kada pitam nekoga tko se suočava s krajem života, ako pokušavam pomoći im da shvate da je vremena malo, govorit ću o tome čemu se nadaju u svom životu. I ako ih čujem kako kažu: "Pa, nadam se da ću živjeti još 30 godina", ali znam da imaju tri tjedna, postoji velika crvena zastavica za mene da kažem: "Znaš što, čovječe? Što ako se to ne dogodi? Čemu se onda nadati? Ako je vremena manje od toga, što je bit tvoje nade?" I neizbježno - pa, ne neizbježno, ali vrlo često možete dovesti ljude do mjesta gdje kažu: "Pa, Bože, s obzirom na tu stvarnost, ono čemu se stvarno nadam je doći na maturu svoje kćeri." I onda kažem: „U redu, pa, postoji cilj s kojim možemo raditi.“ I ako mi netko kaže: „Pa, nadam se da ću živjeti vječno“, onda to nazivam čudom i kažem: „Pa, nadajmo se čudima zajedno.“ To je jednostavno - puno se toga može reći o ovoj riječi, „nada“. To je nešto s čime se tu može puno raditi.</p><p> No, da se vratimo na odgovor na vaše pitanje, kada je vremena malo, kada se ljudi suočavaju s krajem života, to nije nužno beznadan pothvat. Možda se nadaju da će imati još jedan komad pizze ili se možda nadaju da će vidjeti onu posljednju epizodu serije koju vole. Ali to može biti realistično i može ljude povući tako da se zapravo mogu odglumiti do kraja. I to je ta stvar "živjeti do posljednjeg daha".</p><p> GĐA. TIPPETT: Zanimljivo mi je. Radite sa smrću kao s ovom normalnom stvari, ovom praktičnom stvarnošću, nečim što svi - svi umiremo, zar ne? To je još jedan razlog zašto je liječnik također pacijent, zar ne? Svi umiremo.</p><p> DR. MILLER: Da, točno. Da.</p><p> GĐA. TIPPETT: Ali čini se da se držite te trajne vrste poštovanja ili slavljenja same misterije smrti. Osjećate li da razumijete ili da drugačije gledate na smrt kao dio svog života, drugačije zbog ovog života koji ste vodili? Je li to manje misterij?</p><p> DR. MILLER: To je odlično pitanje. U mom području postoji povijest nekih spektakularno teških smrti ljudi koji su radili u hospiciju. Mislim da je upozorenje nama - "nama", što znači onima od nas koji rade u ovom području, bili volonteri, liječnici, medicinske sestre ili što god - da se ne zavaravate mišlju da poznajete smrt, da razumijete, oh, sada sam shvatio. Prošla sam kroz to - bila sam u ovoj ulici milijun puta s ljudima. Shvatila sam. Dakle, kada dođe moje vrijeme, bit ću dobro. To je stvarno opasno. To je kao da uklete sami sebe. Nešto od ovoga je poznato, i, na primjer, zadirkivanje umiranja i implicirane patnje. Umiranje se razlikuje od smrti i zadirkivanja - većina nas se boji umiranja jer podrazumijeva patnju. I kada se svede na to, to je ono što brine većinu ljudi.</p><p> GĐA. TIPPETT: Umiranje, a ne smrt bića.</p><p> DR. MILLER: Da. Dakle, mnogo sam toga naučio što će mi pomoći da manje patim, što mi može pomoći da pomognem drugima da manje pate u tom procesu umiranja. Ali ne pretvaram se da poznajem ili razumijem smrt per se. I dio onoga što radim, poštovanje na koje ukazujete, opet je povratak ovoj misteriji, ovoj stvari koju ne razumijem, a koja je puno veća od mene, i to - što se događa nakon što umrem? Ne znam. I, dečko, zar to nije zanimljivo? Dakle, dio mog rada, i mislim, kada razgovaramo sa studentima, jest, da, upoznati se s konceptom smrti, a svakako s konceptom umiranja, ali nemojte se zavesti da mislite da to potpuno znate. Jer ćete se inače jednog dana naći na svom horizontu i bit ćete stvarno, dodatno šokirani kada saznate da ste prestravljeni, a upravo ste pretpostavljali da nećete biti. Dakle, lako je, samo napravite malo prostora.</p><p> GĐA. TIPPETT: To je misterij. Da.</p><p> DR. MILLER: I to je misterij. Da. Samo morate zaštititi malo prostora za sve što ne znate.</p><p> GĐA. TIPPETT: Dakle, znate, moje posljednje pitanje, imali ste izvanredan život. Mnogo vam se toga dogodilo. Mnogo ste toga podnijeli i doživjeli ste ovu veliku nesreću rano u životu, svojevrsni redizajn vašeg života i karijere koju ste imali i, sada, rada s ljudima. I na neki način, mogli biste govoriti o - ono što radite jest da pomažete ljudima da dizajniraju, sastavljaju svoje umiranje, kraj svojih života. Ovo je ogromno pitanje, ali kako biste počeli razmišljati o tome što vas sve ovo uči o tome što znači biti čovjek? I mislim da je drugi način da se to pita jest kako sve to unosite u način na koji provodite svoje dane, svoj život.</p><p> DR. MILLER: Da. To je vruće pitanje i uvijek je prisutno. Zanimljivo je. Imam 44 godine i osvrćem se unatrag i, prema većini mjerila, imao sam prilično izvanredan život. A istovremeno, jedna od najadaptivnijih vještina koje sam stekao tijekom godina jest stvarno - kada odjednom postanete trostruki amputirani ili nešto slično, šalje vam se hrpa signala da ste sada drugačiji od ljudi oko sebe. I ako se tu zaustavite, možete se stvarno ozlijediti. I prema vama se postupa posebno, a to također ima svoju zavodljivost i sažaljenje. I možete dobiti stvari iz sažaljenja, i to je zaista jedno od velikih groblja u prolasku kroz sve ovo za mene. Kad bih se stvarno prepustio ovoj ideji da: "Oh da, drugačiji sam od onih oko mene" i samo ostavio to tako, samo bih ubacio klin između sebe i svih oko sebe koji mi u konačnici ne bi služio.</p><p> Mi smo društvena bića i jedna od najvažnijih stvari koje sam ikada učinila bila je ideja o varijacijama tema. Dakle, naravno, moje tijelo je drugačije na mnogo načina. Na mnogo načina, moj život je drugačiji. Ali u konačnici, ja ih vidim kao varijacije tema, i to mi omogućuje da prepoznam što je relativno jedinstveno u mom životu, ali i da sebe vidim kao baš kao i bilo koga drugog na vrlo istinit i stvaran način, ne samo izmišljenu. Dakle, to je dio mog odgovora na vaše pitanje. Ali ova ideja - borim se s tim. Vrlo sam zauzeta osoba, kao i mnogi od nas. Glupo zauzeta. Evo me - iz vlastitog iskustva, ali imam ono što ja nazivam svim tim posrednim iskustvima samrtne postelje cijelo vrijeme. Okružena sam ljudima koji umiru. I ja, od svih ljudi, znam da je vrijeme dragocjeno. Nemojte ga rasipati radeći stvari do kojih vam nije stalo. Nemojte ga prejeftino davati, bla, bla, bla. Provodim manje vremena na poslu, više vremena s obitelji, što god to bilo, znaš. [ <em>smijeh</em> ] Nemam izgovor da to zaboravim. Zip. Ipak, nalazim se nevjerojatno i sve zauzetijom, ponekad na slobodi radeći stvari koje ne želim nužno raditi ili u koje čak ni ne vjerujem, na nekoj razini. I u tome postoji određena stvarna moralna nevolja.</p><p> Mislim da je to dio načina na koji se iscrpljujemo, imamo te lekcije, ali i dalje nismo u stanju ostvariti neke od njih. Dakle, Krista, to je za mene trenutno vruće pitanje. Moram shvatiti - moram se stalno preoblikovati i preoblikovati način na koji provodim svoje vrijeme. Svjesna sam da imam previše prijateljstava koja su propala. Svjesna sam da provodim premalo vremena s roditeljima, a postoje i drugi primjeri. Dakle, moram se ponovno preoblikovati.</p><p> GĐA. TIPPETT: Ali znate, ono što upravo opisujete, mislim, imate svijest o tome, što ste rekli, da znamo što želimo i, zapravo, što bismo trebali učiniti i što bi bilo dobro za nas, i imamo problema s usklađivanjem stvarnosti s tim. Mislim, to je ljudsko stanje. To je bit. Vi radite s tim.</p><p> DR. MILLER: Radim s tim. Ali također ukazujete na - kako se ponekad frustriram kako provodim svoje vrijeme, ili ga ne provodim, ne tretiram ga s dragocjenošću koju znam da zaslužuje...</p><p> GĐA. TIPPETT: Ne dizajnirate svoje vrijeme.</p><p> DR. MILLER: Da. Tako je. I, u konačnici, vraćam se na slijetanje, i to je to gdje je. I ovo je kreativna potraga, ona koja uzima - jedra koja se stalno trebaju podešavati. I vidjeti ovo kao kreativni rad koji se nikada ne završava je sjajno, prekrasno, i volio bih tamo sletjeti. To je vjerojatno dobra točka zaustavljanja. I tako sve što smo upravo opisali, čak i ako ne mogu počastiti svaku minutu svakog dana na ovaj najdragocjeniji način, pa, u konačnici, to je samo još jedna stvar koju mogu oprostiti u sebi i nastaviti pokušavati sutra.</p><p> [ <em>glazba: “Broken Monitors” od Bernharda Fleischmanna</em> ]</p><p> GĐA. TIPPETT: BJ Miller je izvršni direktor Zen Hospice Projecta, docent kliničke medicine na Sveučilištu Kalifornije u San Franciscu i specijalist za upravljanje simptomima u UCSF Helen Diller Comprehensive Cancer Centeru.</p><p> Na onbeing.org možete se prijaviti za tjedni e-mail od nas, <em>Pismo iz Loring Park</em> . U vašem inboxu svake subote ujutro - odabrani popis najboljeg što čitamo i objavljujemo, uključujući tekstove naših gostujućih suradnika. Ovaj tjedan pronađite esej Marthe Park o nošenju oružja i ljubavi prema našim susjedima. Pronađite njezin esej i još mnogo toga na onbeing.org.</p><p> [ <em>glazba: “L'Espionnage Pomme de Terre” Turatara</em> ]</p><p> <em>U seriji On Being glume</em> Trent Gilliss, Chris Heagle, Lily Percy, Mariah Helgeson, Maia Tarrell, Annie Parsons, Marie Sambilay, Tess Montgomery, Aseel Zahran, Bethanie Kloecker i Selena Carlson.</p><p> Naši glavni partneri za financiranje su:</p><p> Zaklada Ford, koja surađuje s vizionarima na prvim crtama društvenih promjena diljem svijeta na fordfoundation.org.</p><p> Institut Fetzer, koji potiče svijest o moći ljubavi i oprosta da transformiraju naš svijet. Pronađite ih na fetzer.org.</p><p> Zaklada Kalliopeia, doprinoseći organizacijama koje utkaju poštovanje, reciprocitet i otpornost u tkivo modernog života.</p><p> Zaklada Henry Luce, u znak podrške projektu Reimagined Public Theology.</p><p> I Zaklada Osprey, katalizator za osnažene, zdrave i ispunjene živote.</p><p> ***</p><p> <b>Za više inspiracije, pridružite se Awakin Callu s BJ Millerom 14. kolovoza: 'Kako ne propustiti dobru egzistencijalnu krizu'. 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}</script> <h3 class="h5 pb-2 section-header mt-5"> <i class="bi bi-people text-success"></i> <span>1 PAST RESPONSES</span> <hr> </h3> <div id="cmtlist" class="mt-4"> <div class="comment-item" id="cmt_9465"> <div class="comment-container"> <div class="comment-avatar"> <img src="https://pod.servicespace.org/pics/mem/blank.jpg" alt="User avatar"> </div> <div class="comment-content-wrapper"> <div class="comment-meta"> <span class="comment-author">Kristin Pedemonti</span> <span class="comment-date">Aug 5, 2021</span> <a href="https://www.dailygood.org/story/1257/-p-slijedi-audiozapis-i-transkript-intervjua-kriste-tippett-i-dr-bj-millera-na-onbeing-org-p-p-p-iframe-frameborder-no-height-166-scrolling-no-src-https-w-soundcloud-com-player-url-https-3a-api-soundcloud-com-tracks-244241049-and-color-on-being/?t=showComment&cid=9465" class="ms-auto link-icon text-muted"><i class='fa fa-link'></i></a> </div> <div class="comment-content"> <p>Thank you BJ Miller for your insights, humanity, humor and candor. Your views on "hope" brought up something we discussed with Vikki Reynolds this week she called "believed in hope" that is a form of hope in action and is as,you said, relative to context. She shared an example of hope even in the seemingly darkest places like death row. Where the hope may not end up being freedom, but to die with a tiny shred of dignity of one's humanity being seen and shared, even if with only one other person. Was powerful to consider and your views on hope, it being fluid depending on circumstances transported me.</p><p>Thank you.</p> </div> <div class="comment-actions"> <a href="https://www.dailygood.org/story/1257/-p-slijedi-audiozapis-i-transkript-intervjua-kriste-tippett-i-dr-bj-millera-na-onbeing-org-p-p-p-iframe-frameborder-no-height-166-scrolling-no-src-https-w-soundcloud-com-player-url-https-3a-api-soundcloud-com-tracks-244241049-and-color-on-being/?t=showComment&cid=9465#addcomment" class="reply-link" data-cmt-id="9465" data-cmt-author="Kristin Pedemonti"><i class="bi bi-reply"></i> Reply</a> <span class="btn-light post_btn small"></span> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> <script> $(document).ready(function() { // Toggle between short and full comments $('.see_full_cmt').on('click', function(e) { e.preventDefault(); var cid = $(this).attr('cid'); $('.short_cmt' + cid).hide(); $('.long_cmt' + cid).show(); }); $('.see_short_cmt').on('click', function(e) { e.preventDefault(); var cid = $(this).attr('cid'); $('.long_cmt' + cid).hide(); $('.short_cmt' + cid).show(); }); }); </script> </div>   </div> </div> </div> </div> </section> <script src="js/story.js?2cue"></script>  <footer class="footer"> <div class="container"> <div class="row"> <div class="col-md-5 mb-4 mb-md-0"> <h5 class="footer-title">About DailyGood</h5> <p class="footer-about-text"> For over 29 years, DailyGood has been a volunteer-led movement to share uplifting stories that connect hearts and inspire action — all without ads, agendas, or asks. 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