Stuart Brown: I Could Ask You as a Parent and Any Other Parent that's Listening with a Young child, You

And that this is nature's way of sort of saying this is who you are and what you are. And I'm sure if you go back and think about both of your children or yourself and go back to your earliest emotion-laden, visual and visceral memories of what really gave you joy, you'll have some sense of what was natural for you and where your talents lie. So that’s why I write that. I think it’s pretty important.

Ms. Tippett: Yeah. Do you, um — I think it’s fashionable to say that media is ruining our children and they watch too much TV and video games are ruining them. And it's certainly one effect of keeping our children safe indoors is that we kind of make them captive to technology. That can be one effect. But I will say that as I look at some of the computer- and Internet-based games that my children discover, some of them are incredibly interactive. And there's a lot of imagination.

Dr. Brown: Sure, they are.

Ms. Tippett: I mean, is some of that okay?

Dr. Brown: Oh, sure, of course. I mean, the research is not very good, in my field. It is pretty good on the effects of violent TV, for example, the prolonged exposure of violent TV. But, but the research on video games, particularly if it's kind of non-addictive video game use, is not very solid. And I think there is evidence that a limited amount of video games probably increases imaginativeness and skills. And the newly-designed video games that incorporate movement are likely to be much more savory for the body and mind than, let's say, one that's strictly two-dimensional screen and your thumb's on a gadget.

Ms. Tippett: Mm-hmm. Is the involvement of the body generally really important in terms of the positive effects that you've noted in play in animals and people?

Dr. Brown: Absolutely. I'm glad you asked the question. Part of the brain called the cerebellum, at least when I went to medical school, was thought to just help coordinate eye movements and body balance. Now, with refined imaging techniques, we see that there are connections between the cerebellum and the prefrontal cortex that get lit up by three-dimensional movement. And there's every evidence that movement accelerates learning. And this is in its infancy, but there's enough evidence for this that this is — these are parts of studies that the National Institute for Play is attempting to organize because it seems to be very important.

Ms. Tippett: Well, you know, I'm struck that we're having this very serious conversation about play.

Dr. Brown: Well, this is serious, you know? We don't want to have any mischief happening on this program.

Ms. Tippett: That's right. I mean, just tell me how this research, in this immersion that you have in play as a study, how does it change your experience of this part of life? Or how does it change you?

Dr. Brown: Well, I give myself over at least three or four hours a day to what, for an old guy, is spontaneous free play. It, you know, it could be reading or what I would call as extremely low-quality rogue tennis, hiking, playing with grandchildren. But I, you know, if a day goes by and I haven't, at this age, had some sense of timelessness and freedom and purposelessness, I'll probably be kind of ratty by suppertime.

Ms. Tippett: But, boy, cultivating an appreciation for timelessness and purposelessness, I mean, that's work in our culture.

Dr. Brown: Shouldn't be. Should be a part of our — and, you know, you attenuate recess, cut down recess and kids are learning that what's important is academic performance. Whereas, probably equal amounts if not more are being learned on the playground at recess. Most kids are outside of time when they're on the playground at recess if it's free play.

Ms. Tippett: Say some more about that. What do you mean "outside of time"? I mean, that's such an evocative phrase.

Dr. Brown: Well, if one were to get a replay of Michael Jordan in one of the final games of NBA championship and see him zoning down the floor doing some moves he's never done before and tossing the ball up for a basket, I doubt if, at that time, he is really conscious that the buzzer's about to go or that — I think he's outside of time. And I can certainly give you from my own life recollections of that sensation. Just, say last week, I was I in a nice musical concert that was being held in Monterey and, you know, I got lost in the music and had the feeling of, you know, sort of an oceanic feeling of not being there. And it wasn't something I expected to happen. But it was pleasurable. Watching a grandson of mine on the floor with his stuffed animal talking to it, timeless. And it's different for, for lots of us.

But I think that that's a, you know, a play state of being that's an important sense of priority that you don't try and struggle toward, but you try and sort of let it happen to yourself from within what works for you.

Ms. Tippett: You did mention reading, and I don't know if reading would fall into a definition of play, but it is something, for me, that's a very pleasurable and transports me to a timeless place. Does reading count for you?

Dr. Brown: Oh, of course.

Ms. Tippett: Yeah.

Dr. Brown: Very much so. And I share that, that same weakness.

Ms. Tippett: And so, you know, when you talk about timelessness that does have a spiritual resonance. How do you think about the spirituality of play that's — maybe you would put other words on it.

Dr. Brown: Well, I don't know that I have a crisp way of thinking about it. I can give you a private experience that was, to me, a spiritual experience.

Ms. Tippett: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Brown: When I was working with the National Geographic and — was able, privileged to spend time with play researchers in Africa, I do vividly remember one morning when I was watching a pride of lions and two sub-adult female lionesses got up, looked at each other — and there's a picture of this in the National Geographic magazine, what looked from a distance kind of like a fight, but it was a ballet. And while I was watching this, I was overwhelmed by the feeling that this is — I'm almost brought to tears talking about it now — that this is divine.

There's something divine going on here that transcends their carnivorousness and the, you know, red and tooth and claw and the rest of it. Now that's my projection onto it, but it still was very meaningful to me. And I think seeing a young child just immersed in play and watching them closely is a spiritual experience. And there is spirit emerging in play. Something non-material that's a part of it that at least it's hard for me to define it as just ions zipping around in a nervous system.

Ms. Tippett: Right. And, I mean, if you are a religious person, do you have a different image of God because of this?

Dr. Brown: Yes. I do.

Ms. Tippett: What does it do to your image of God to be a lover of play?

Dr. Brown: Well, I think, you know I’ve got — since I’m — one foot is always stuck in science, I have some sense that this is God’s way of evolving — of things evolving in our biological universe. That some of the driving force behind change, uh, is embodied in these — this emergent property, this self-organizing system that tends to captivate the nervous system and the behavior of humans but — that I call play.

Ms. Tippett: Hmm.

Dr. Brown: And that for me expands and kind of gives me a sense of unity with time and space and permanence and even the galaxies, which are also self-organizing and emergent.

Ms. Tippett: That’s a very pleasant way for God to organize self-organization. Through play.

Dr. Brown: Well, there’s also violence and there are a few other things that one sees that I don’t want to be, you know, Pollyannaish about it…

Ms. Tippett: Yeah.

Dr. Brown: ...because I’ve certainly seen the world in its — you can’t as a psychiatrist or a studier of violence not see the other side.

Ms. Tippett: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Brown: Which I’ve seen too.

Ms. Tippett: But this is part of the big picture.

Dr. Brown: Sure is.

Ms. Tippett: That this is also part of the big picture. I mean we get a lot of publicity of that other — of the violence. Right?

Dr. Brown: I’ll say. I’ll say we do. And it’s there. It’s real, there’s no shrinking from it.

Ms. Tippett: Mm-hmm. What would you like to talk about? What have I not asked you about that animates you in this that you want to share with people?

Dr. Brown: Well, I think the sense that, if you’re living a life without it, yeah, your life can go on okay, it’s — you’re gonna survive, you’re not going to die if you don’t play.

Ms. Tippett: Without it, with play, right. Without play.

Dr. Brown: Without play.

Ms. Tippett: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Brown: But, uh, it’s kind of an endurance contest or sort of the joy of living is lessened if one doesn’t play. And in particular, if parents are tense and over-organizing their kids with the hope they’ll succeed, get into Princeton, make a lot of money, so that they insist that every moment be playdates or soccer or ballet or gymnastics or, you know, music here, that some of the essence of life is being missed.

Ms. Tippett: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Brown: And that's one thing and that's important to me. And probably, the other thing that we haven't talked about but which has really struck me since I’ve been a student of play, is looking at the biological design of being human. And when you look closely at that, I'll give you an analogy. A Labrador retriever plays through its lifetime and dies a child. A wolf sort of gives up childish thing, double scent marks, has alpha behavior, governs its reproduction, and is a very successful animal if it isn't killed off by humans — but doesn't play much. But if you look at the human and look at our nervous systems and our, what I would call our physiognomy, the way we look and the way we're designed…

Ms. Tippett: Right.

Dr. Brown: …we really are designed to retain immature playful-like attributes throughout our life cycle. That's a fundamental part of our design. We know that human beings are now capable of neurogenesis, of new neural development throughout the lifetime, whereas most other creatures cannot. That's a design part of being human. Now take that into policy matters.

Ms. Tippett: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Brown: Do we parent that way? Do we teach our kids in school that way? Do we take advantage of the design? Do we also see that there are hazards? The permanent adolescence of the human being means we may be subject to irrational, impulsive behavior. Maybe our laws and our institutions should help reflect that a bit more. If we don't play, what are the consequences? We're more reptilian. We're more savage. We're more — we lack some of those features that I've mentioned earlier in the program.

Ms. Tippett: I think that in making a connection between play and maturity and wisdom, because you know that's something I hear, you're affirming — I think one of the most surprising experiences I've had of enjoying growing older, you know, sort of heading into the latter part of my 40s, which is that I actually think I am enjoying life more and relaxing, and…

Dr. Brown: Good for you.

Ms. Tippett: … and throwing myself into play in a way that I didn't when I was younger and, you know, accomplishing things. Hopefully, I'm still accomplishing things but I'm not…

Dr. Brown: You've gained wisdom earlier than most of us. I certainly was a workaholic doctor for too long in my life.

Ms. Tippett: Right. But I mean that is the model in our culture of what being mature is. I mean, being mature is being that wolf. It's leaving behind the Labrador behavior. I mean, clearly, I know what you're saying.

Dr. Brown: Correct.

Ms. Tippett: There's a line between being the permanent adolescent and being a playful, mature human being. But, um, I don't — I think you're right that our culture doesn't know how to talk about that playfulness as a wisdom, kind of.

Dr. Brown: There is a kind of a paradox and it doesn't mean we should be irresponsible.

Ms. Tippett: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Brown: Just the opposite. By having empathy and trust and compassion, which I think are byproducts of the playful life because you got a little left over, it doesn't mean that you're just going to go off and do whatever you want hedonistically. There are boundaries that are certainly part of…

Ms. Tippett: Right.

Dr. Brown: … play. But it doesn't mean you have to be a grouch or serious all the time. I mean, look at Reagan and Gorbachev at, uh — talks in Iceland. They broke down completely until the morning they were to leave, Reagan had said, 'Let's have breakfast together.' And he went in, started telling dirty jokes, and then Gorby started telling dirty jokes. They reorganized the conference and they got the missile situation taken care of. So…

Ms. Tippett: That's hard to turn into a paradigm, though…

Dr. Brown: Yes, I know. I don't expect us to do that with the Iranians at the moment.

Ms. Tippett: Right. Yeah. I remember being at a retreat once. I think it was a spiritual retreat, very serious. And I remember some people saying how one of the things they were working at at this point in their life was playing more, and something about the way they said it, about what hard work it was, made it feel like a doomed enterprise. And you know…

Dr. Brown: Well, it doesn't sound like….

Ms. Tippett: And I worry a little bit we’ve now kind of rediscovered — we're having this conversation about our children. But are we going to make them work so hard at playing that we ruin it for them? So, I mean, what advice would you give people about recovering this as a healthy part of our lives if it's something that we've lost, and that our culture really, really works against?

Dr. Brown: I think recovering it depends a little on how much of it you had as a kid and you can bring back in adult form into your current contemporary life. You know, I take a lot of reviews of play of varieties of people. And when I come across somebody who really has had an abusive childhood and they say, 'Well, I never really played. I never felt free to play.' It's not that they've lost it. They feel they've never had it.

Ms. Tippett: Yeah.

Dr. Brown: Well, then you start with things like rhythm and movement and those things that intrinsically produce some sense of pleasure and joyfulness. Well, as Bob Fagen says, "Movement fills an empty heart."

Ms. Tippett: You mean like movement, dancing or sports or anything?

Dr. Brown: Dancing, yeah. Dancing, but things that are conflict-free but that you can kind of do that produce a sense of some of the things I've talked about — a sense of pleasure, of taking you out of that urgency of time — that work for you, whether it's reading or dancing or hiking or conversation in a pub or what. You know, there are lots of different ways. But I think it's important to find those things that work for you and to then, as Campbell said, then "follow your bliss."

Ms. Tippett: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Brown: Find your bliss and follow it. But the bliss is usually retrievable. It's kind of like you have to reach for it and pull it out, you know, from within your memory. But reach into visual images and emotional images that are — that produce a sense of pleasure for you, and then build on them. And that usually helps in the recovery. And it's not something that happens overnight. It's a slow but enjoyable process.

Ms. Tippett: I think it might be frightening at 60 to say this is an absolutely essential part of being human that I've paid no attention to and I'm not very good at, and don't know how to begin.

Dr. Brown: But you know, it's different than trying to learn a new language, learning Chinese at 60 because Chinese isn't embedded in you but play is.

Ms. Tippett: Right.

Dr. Brown: You got a leg up on play just by being human.

Ms. Tippett: Stuart Brown is founder and president of the National Institute for Play near Monterey, California. He is co-author of Play: How It Shapes the Brain, Opens the Imagination, and Invigorates the Soul.