塔米·西蒙：您正在收听的是《边缘洞察》 。今天，我的嘉宾是黛安·普尔·海勒。黛安·普尔·海勒是儿童和成人依恋理论领域的知名专家，擅长创伤疗愈和整合疗法。她开发了一套独具特色的成人依恋培训课程，名为“DARe”（动态依恋重塑体验）。她还著有新书《依恋的力量：如何建立深厚持久的亲密关系》 。

在与黛安的对话中，我们探讨了不同的依恋模式，这些潜藏在我们每个人内心深处的无意识蓝图，对我们生活的质量，以及我们与他人建立联系的方式，有着不可思议的影响。黛安强调，无

That's not an intentional thing for the Ambivalent. I want to explain why that happens in a compassionate way. Because when they were young, the only way they could get attention was either sometimes through illness or sometimes through crying. But usually at an infant level, they often had the experience of getting more contact through crying or being ill. So their pattern that if they stop crying—it's like a survival issue—they'll lose their attachment figure. So they don't understand this even themselves, but there's this fear of being abandoned if I stop my trying to engage the other person.

This is interesting because even when they start to get what they want from their partner, they'll tend to dismiss the caring behavior. They'll tend to not see it. Because they're in this physiological loop, they'll keep pressuring for something. Even though they might actually be getting good responses, they don't acknowledge them. They often negate them and keep complaining. It's like, "Okay, I want to go out to dinner," and your partner says, "Great, that's wonderful. Let's go." Then you end up at the Italian restaurant, and they start complaining because they really wanted to go to the Greek restaurant, but they didn't tell you that. So there's always this sort of it's not good enough, and partners later on can feel exasperated by that.

It's not… the Ambivalent doesn't really even understand why they're pushed to do that. It's not because they mean anything to frustrate people. But like what I did with one client, I had her imagine having everything she could possibly want relationally on a big smorgasbord, like a banquet table full of her favorite foods, and her favorite emotional treats, and anything she would want in her relationship. I said, "I want you to imagine just taking that into your body," just to take that in, and she was so shocked because she said, "Oh, my stomach. My whole body is constricting. It's like saying no. So, why would I say no?"

I said, "I think… Let's just try something else, but now I want you just imagine taking one percent of what's available to you." She goes, "Oh, I can do that." Her stomach relaxed. She could take it in. She started to feel satisfied. But often Ambivalents don't know how to feel satisfied because of this early patterning, so she was feeling satisfied and then she goes, "Oh, I think I want to try two percent." I'm like, "Great. Let's try two percent." So she goes and takes in two percent. She's still able to manage it. She gets up to five percent, she's able to manage it.

She's feeling fulfillment and satisfaction for almost the first time in her life, and she did not realize that she had trouble receiving, and that she was blaming her partners through life about that, and really it was her inability to receive. So as we helped her heal and make a practice of staying present when somebody does something nice for her, to notice it, stay present for it, try to take it in, or take in five percent of it. Then she started to build a capacity to receive. But she didn't even know that that was the issue. She thought all of her partners weren't doing the right thing.

So what I love about this work is it cuts through blame, and we start to be able to feel our own pattern, and not only feel the pain of it but feel the possibility of how do we move out of that? How do we help ourselves heal? What tools can we practice that will bring us more towards Secure Attachment? That's really what I'm hoping to really expand on in the book.

TS: I think you do a very good job of that. Just, finally, introducing Disorganized Attachment, that pattern.

DPH：是的，这确实是个棘手的问题。混乱的成长环境通常发生在孩子童年早期，父母的某些行为令孩子感到恐惧的时候。孩子的威胁反应会一直处于激活状态，他们会高度警惕，感到害怕，并对父母的对待方式感到恐惧或愤怒。这很有意思，因为父母的行为可能包括大声吼叫、身体虐待、性虐待或情感虐待等等。当然，打孩子也是其中之一。此外，缺乏良好的界限感，或者父母自身存在某种成瘾问题，都会导致家庭混乱。

So those are some things that would be actively coming from the parents that would set up this dynamic, where the threat response is shutting down the attachment system, and the attachment system and the threat response are in a ... Because when we're in threat, we very often are not in the part of the brain that's interested in connecting, which is the medial prefrontal cortex. We're in our reptilian brain, which is about the threat response, and we're activating our sympathetic nervous system reactions of fight or flight, or we're shutting down completely into a freeze with over parasympathetic, and that creates a lot of turmoil.

Another way that Disorganized can get set up is if the parents themselves have a trauma history, which many of us do, that's unresolved, and maybe their behavior is kind and consistent and reasonable and everything most the time. But they're emanating a feeling of fear or terror from their own unresolved trauma. A baby can't attach to fear and anger. It will disattach or disconnect, or it'll disorganize the attachment system, is where that word comes from.

So what we're trying to do, and like when I'm trying to work with people, is to help them separate out people that they feel relatively safe with, sort of their ally oasis, so they can give their attachment system a safe place to land. So, I might have them talk about all the people they feel they can trust, or they feel that soothe them or that being around them feels safe, and that might be you as a therapist, or you as a partner, or wherever you can start with that. Sometimes, it's with people's pets.

Then to start to feel what an attachment would feel like when it's not interrupted by the threat response. Then we have to work with the threat response, and I would say, "Okay, what behavior of your mother or father was disturbing to you?" I take one parent at a time. Let's say it was yelling, and say the father happened to yell a lot. I would have them put the father as far away from them as they need them to be, and maybe mute the father or put him in a soundproof booth or something, so that they have distance. Because very often when people experience stress, they feel like it's right in their face. So, they're overcome by it. So giving distance is the first part of that.

然后，通过制止和阻止父亲的威胁行为，使其无法继续。你可以这样说：“他现在做不了或说不了任何令人不安的事情。他离你这么远，动弹不得。” 然后你可以问他们：“既然威胁行为已经停止了，你想对此做什么或说什么？” 因为你要引导他们从消极反应（例如崩溃或解离）转变为积极应对，例如表达自己的想法，说：“我讨厌你这样做”，或者“别这么大声”，或者“去参加情绪管理课程”。

Or maybe they want to push him away, like making a boundary, or they want to glare at him when he's in that behavior. I always separate the behavior from the parent, because I don't like to demonize parents. Usually we have love for our parents, so I said, "The love isn't the problem. Let's look at the behaviors that really were hurtful to you. And let's see if we can calm and complete that threat response." So this movement from passive responses, like collapse or dissociation, to active response is very empowering. It really helps people feel like they have strength and they can do something about it, and they're doing it in the safety of your relationship, whether you're a therapist or a partner or a friend.

然后他们就能经历威胁序列并完成威胁反应，这可能需要反复进行，具体取决于触发因素的数量。但依恋系统和威胁反应是相互制约的，它们的目标相互冲突。因此，我试图理清这两个系统，让个体感受到这两个生存系统中积极的一面，从而使他们能够完成这两个系统的反应。

And of course, because Disorganized has so much threat in it, they very often are highly dysregulated. So they might have sudden shifts of emotional states. They might be easily triggered into hypervigilance. They might dissociate easily. But depending on how you unpack that, that's why it's so complicated. It could show itself in so many different variations. But if you understand trauma work and you understand attachment work, I think they're a marriage made in heaven. Then you can address both those parts of things for people and help them learn how to better self-regulate, how to collect co-regulate or interactively regulate with their partner.

If you get two Disorganized people together in a relationship, you just need to make sure they aren't both triggered at the same time. They need to take turns on dealing with the difficulties, because when you get two Disorganized together, both triggered, that's a recipe for suffering.

TS: Now, I want to ask you a personal question, and I'm going to be vulnerable myself in asking the question, setting it up. Which is, I myself discovered in my adult relational life that, unfortunately, I resonate quite a lot with the Avoidant patterning, and it's been a huge journey to be in a relationship that's characterized by Secure Attachment. It's a journey that really has been a big part of the last two decades of my life. So my personal question for you, is what's your relationship blueprint pattern, and how have you worked with it, whatever you have discovered that it is?

DPH：嗯，依恋类型可以混合出现，我觉得我当时的情况有点像，实际上是相当严重地，是混乱型/回避型依恋，因为混乱型依恋包含了两种不安全依恋类型。所以你可能会在这两种依恋类型之间摇摆不定……混乱型依恋可能会在回避型和矛盾型之间来回切换，或者你可能是一种以矛盾型为主的混乱型依恋模式，又或者是一种以回避型为主的混乱型依恋模式。所以我觉得我的经历主要体现了以回避型为主的混乱型依恋，因为当我压力很大的时候，我倾向于把自己封闭起来，忘记我的朋友是谁，忘记那些亲近的人是谁。就好像他们突然间都不存在了一样。我必须在冰箱上贴个清单，或者放些照片之类的东西来提醒自己我还有其他资源，因为我首先想到的就是把自己封闭起来。

So I have Disorganized largely because there was a lot of stress with one of my parents originally, that was quite frightening ongoingly in my upbringing. So, I was alternately loved by this person but also afraid of them, and that took me a while to sort out. And especially doing the "Kind Eyes" exercise, the reason I love that one so much is I really had to work with that to be able to even see people's eyes and detect how they were looking at me, because I would always first see this angry, hateful look. That took me a while to peel that back.

我小时候经历过一些非常严重的创伤，这些创伤都与人际关系有关，甚至发生在家庭之外。因此，我需要克服很多恐惧。我一直在努力，多亏了彼得·莱文和他的工作，我的神经系统得到了很大的帮助，让我重新调节好神经系统，变得更加注重人际关系，并对人与人之间的联结产生了浓厚的兴趣。一开始，我认为我实际上是在疗愈那些非常危险的关系带来的创伤。所以，这是一段漫长的旅程。我一生都在为此努力，下个月我就65岁了。

TS：是的，我想这正是我想要表达的部分，因为你提到你的书《依恋的力量》真正想帮助人们学习安全型依恋的技巧，并在生活中朝着这个方向发展。当然，我也非常渴望能将这份礼物带给世界上的其他人，但我希望确保人们能够感受到这段旅程的意义，了解需要付出什么，以及需要进行多么深入的内在探索。我想请你谈谈这其中的意义，以及它对我们提出的实际要求。

DPH：嗯，我觉得一切都始于好奇心，就像点燃蜡烛一样，我们渴望探寻自身经历，渴望获得支持，并拥有自我疗愈的意愿。我做了很多灵性方面的工作，也接受心理治疗之类的。最终，我们学会了如何摆脱过去的许多模式，敞开心扉迎接更健康的自己，找到更多与他人联结的能力。我不想说这是一段轻松的旅程，但它无比充实，一旦我们……我觉得当我们允许自己经历这个过程时，我们会收获良多。

真正摆脱“我或你出了问题”这种想法，比如我们自身出了问题，或者这个世界出了问题。我们开始超越这种想法，理解我们自身拥有的惊人疗愈能力，以及如何与苦难建立一种理智的关系。我认为这一点非常重要。因为苦难确实存在。在人生的旅途中，我们无法避免会遇到一些非常艰难的事情。我认为我们生活在一个非常艰难的星球上。做人很艰难。我不知道还有其他的选择，但我们都选择了这条路。

这很难。生活充满挑战。也许有时候生活很美好，但挑战也很多。所以我不想显得过于乐观，因为我一点也不这么认为。我们该如何找到一路上的帮助者？我们又该如何培养内在的力量，去面对那些我们可能想要否认的自身特质，并找到那份韧性、能力、包容和开放的源泉？有时我们会失去这一切，那我们又该如何重新开始？

It's constantly, I think, falling down and picking oneself up. I think relationships, our deep relationships, whether they're partners or as a parent or deep friendship. I think that's really like being in the trenches. Because I think relationships challenge this part of ourselves in a really direct way for most of us, if we didn't have the jackpot of starting out with Secure Attachment and feeling basic trust and seeing relationships and expecting relationships to be nourishing and yummy and delicious, and knowing how to respond to our partners in a way that just deepens love.

A lot of us didn't start out from that point of experience, so we make a lot of mistakes, and then how do we come back? And how do we excavate what might work better, or find that part of ourselves that's not wounded? I mean, we have the wounded part, but we have the unwounded part, that we access more and more as we do this deep exploration.

TS: How do we disidentify, Diane, but make sure that we're not avoiding the journey we actually need to make through the old pattern?

DPH：嗯，说真的，在我的这段时间里，我感觉自己完全沉浸在痛苦之中，努力想弄明白，“好吧，这到底是怎么回事？” 我试图与这种体验保持联结，而不是与之脱离，这意味着我没有逃避。因为要对人生的全部体验敞开心扉：痛苦、喜悦、悲伤、焦虑、成长、束缚，并在需要的时候寻求指引。我坚信，生活中有很多导师、治疗师和精神导师非常重要。我认为这对我大有裨益。

然后，我们也要承诺自己努力去保持正念。我想我说的正念，就是真正地与我们的体验同在，看着它慢慢展开。痛苦有时和突破一样宝贵，因为你在消化一些东西。你在消化你的过往，消化它，吸收你能用的东西，剔除你不再需要的东西。我认为，从某种意义上说，这是一种非常形象的消化隐喻，象征着身份的解脱。但我必须深入泥沼，最终才能浮出水面，或者借助他人更纯粹的存在，才能更清晰地看待事物。

幸运的是，我的意思是，你的人生方向和使命就是让人们接触到所有这些不同的可能性，无论是在灵性层面还是疗愈层面。我觉得我们生活在一个相对较新的时代，在这个时代，有很多资源可以用来传播灵性工作和疗愈方法，甚至包括我提供的依恋关系疗法。我们可以传播这些信息，也可以从中受益，也可以加以利用。但我认为，如果有人——无论是伴侣、专业人士还是私人关系——的帮助，真的会非常大。

我觉得这在某种程度上能帮助我们更快、更有效地走出痛苦，找到更广阔的可能性。我的意思是，这真是一段意义非凡的旅程。创伤中蕴藏着一份礼物，因为当你处理和消化它时，它会开启出巨大的创造力、远见和不同的精神维度。所以这一切都是值得的，只是……我不太喜欢一开始就跟别人说这些，因为这感觉好像没有体谅到其中的艰难，而它确实很艰难。有时候，它会让人崩溃。

TS: Do you have a sense when it comes to re-patterning an attachment blueprint, how long that takes in general? Once again, just trying to give people a framework.

DPH：我认为，你越是认真对待那些具体的安全依恋技巧，比如我在书中提到的一些技巧，你就能越发觉得有效。你可以把每一项技巧都变成一种习惯。对我来说，我真正养成了一个习惯：如果有人联系我，无论是邮件、语音留言还是其他任何方式，我都会尽可能在24小时内回复。我生活中有很多需要联系的人，所以这对我来说是一项非常重要的承诺。当然，我也有一个团队会帮我处理一些并非我亲自处理的事情。但我确实非常注重及时回复，这很有趣，因为有时候我写完一封邮件后，会回到开头，重新强调“联结”的重要性。然后我会努力强调联结的重要性。

我确实养成了一个修复关系的习惯。当我觉得哪里不对劲时，我会努力鼓起勇气去解决它，也许不会立刻就解决。也许我需要慢慢来，但这些方法都很有帮助。甚至包括我看人的方式，比如我跟人打招呼的时候。我会确保自己没有在看他们的档案，也没有在玩手机。我会看着他们，跟他们打招呼，握手或者拥抱，只要关系允许，我都会直视他们的眼睛，尽可能地展现出我的存在感。

These are things I've learned from the attachment study. But also, like who do we want to be in the world? And how do we want to connect? And how do we want to honor every individual ,because we're all interconnected? In a way, we're all seeing ourselves. We're all the same thing from some perspective. But how do we not get into this us-versus-them polarization, that it's so easy to trigger if you're coming from fear or hatred or anger, and how do we get into an all-of-us, interconnected perspective? I think Secure Attachment really helps that. It helps brain integration. It helps us access love and compassion. It helps us move into that global citizen kind of space, like a more cooperative versus competitive or collaborative. We become collaborators with people in our lives, and you're not going to do this perfectly every day. I mean, we're going to do the best we can. But as you make it practices, it gets easier.

TS：在《依恋的力量》这本书的开头部分，我非常喜欢其中的一段。您谈到了如何增强安全型依恋，以及我们自身可能存在的不安全型依恋是如何通过父母的过往经历代代相传的。您提供了一种练习，一种可视化练习，可以帮助我们疗愈父母，疗愈父母可能存在的依恋创伤。您能否分享一下，无论父母年龄多大，甚至已经去世，我们该如何帮助他们？

DPH：是的，我喜欢这个练习。它也是我最喜欢的练习之一。我通常称之为“角色互换”，因为童年时期导致不安全依恋的原因之一是，孩子常常被依赖来满足父母的需求，或者在某些情况下成为父母的代理伴侣。理想情况下，父母应该是父母，这是一种不对等的关系，父母主要为我们付出。当然，随着我们长大，我们反过来也会为父母付出。

但在这个练习中，首先，如果我在给别人做治疗，我通常会让他们深入探索自己的依恋创伤，看看他们错过了什么，然后尝试创造一种矫正性的体验，让他们真正满足这种需求，比如他们可能感觉自己没有被倾听，或者从未感觉被理解。然后我会问：“好，你现在生活中有没有真正理解你的人？或者，如果你能想象一个这样的人，他会具备哪些品质？他会如何对待你？”因为他们正在创造解药，或者他们可能从我这里感受到了解药，因为我肯定会努力倾听和理解他们。

但当他们感到这种需求得到满足后，我有时会……因为那时他们内心就有了依靠。他们不再受创伤的束缚。我常常会引导他们思考：“我想……我的意思是，你现在对你妈妈算是比较了解了。你和她相处了很多很多年，见证了她各种不同的境遇。就从妈妈开始吧。我想请你试着想象一下你的妈妈需要什么？她缺少什么？她有哪些未被满足的需求，以至于她会从这个角度去看待自己的行为或人生经历？”

而且很多时候，人们很快就能意识到这一点。他们会说：“天哪！我妈妈需要支持才能独立自主。我父亲和他们的婚姻完全控制了她。她从来没有自己的时间，还要照顾六个孩子。我妈妈真的需要……我的意思是，如果她生在今天，她肯定会成为一家公司的CEO。她能力很强，但她被困在了旧时代的生活方式里，那并不适合她。” 我会说：“好吧，想象一下那会是什么样子。” 我有个客户说：“哦，我真希望她能和玛丽·泰勒·摩尔一起参加读书俱乐部。” 还记得《我的女孩》吗？我这么说好像暴露年龄了。

TS：是的。

DPH：她代表的是一位独立自主的年轻女性。我觉得另一个例子是玛丽·泰勒·摩尔，她在剧中饰演一位在新闻台工作的女性，也是一位独立女性。她当时单身。所以她就想，“我真希望她也能拥有这样的机会。” 她想象着她的母亲参加读书俱乐部，和那些来自媒体的女性一起，这些女性代表着自主和选择，当然，这并不意味着她的母亲就不能选择结婚生子。这没什么错。但她希望母亲的这个愿望能够实现。

当她感受到和母亲在一起时的那种感觉时，她开始觉得：“天哪，我仿佛看到了母亲的快乐。而当她快乐时，我仿佛看到了她对我更加关爱。” 因为至少在想象中，你正在引导母亲走向安全型依恋，她自身的需要得到了满足，然后她自然会更加满足，也能够成为一位更加慈爱、更加投入、更加陪伴在孩子身边的父母。所以，这实际上是在治愈一代人。在这个案例中，当事人本身也是一位母亲，我们开始以母亲和女儿的身份与她合作，修复代际相传的不安全型依恋。所以，我们同时在帮助三代人。

But I really do believe what you said, that even if your parent's not alive anymore, I feel like you can heal ancestrally and start to break that generational transmission, which many of us have more capacity to do these days, because we have so many resources that simply didn't exist if you go back 80 to 90 years.

TS: Diane, I want to call our conversation, "We are designed for connection," and-

公共卫生部：我同意。

TS： ……这是你刚才在我们谈话中提到的一句话。在谈话的最后，你提到了一些可能对那些感到与他人有些疏离的人有所帮助的方法。你在《依恋的力量》这本书中提到的一点我觉得很棒，那就是：“有没有人主动联系你，而你可以回应？也许是有人寻求你的帮助，希望修复关系，而你却没有回应；或者有人寻求你的帮助，希望建立联系？”对于此刻正在收听节目，并且心想“天哪，我多么希望自己能与周围的人建立更紧密的联系”的人来说，你还有什么其他建议吗？

DPH：嗯，其实有些事情很简单，比如你如何问候朋友，或者说，第一次见面，尤其是和伴侣很久没见的时候。比如，你能给对方一个全身拥抱吗？是那种贴着肚子的拥抱，不是那种三角拥抱，很多人只是轻轻拍拍对方的肩膀，看起来就像搭了个帐篷，而不是真正地连接在一起。如果是你的伴侣，那拥抱就应该更紧密一些，你们能保持这个拥抱，直到彼此感受到对方的情绪波动吗？你们能保持这种连接，并互相支持吗？

斯坦·塔特金在YouTube上有一个很棒的视频，叫做“欢迎回家的拥抱”。视频里讲到了一些增进感情的仪式，比如：你如何问候别人？如果你和某人住在一起，早上起床后你们会怎么做？早上如何交流？晚上如何进行一些增进感情的仪式？我有些朋友就有一个习惯，他们每天都会找到一些特别的松露巧克力。每天晚上，他们都会把白天找到的这些特别的松露巧克力放在伴侣的枕头上。虽然他们不一定同时入睡，但他们都心存感激。

他们总会在睡前进行一些简短的枕边细语。都是些你知道可以依靠的小事，一些日常生活中建立起来的传统，当然还有节日。但说到底，还是日常生活。当你见到朋友时，你会容光焕发吗？你会热情欢迎吗？你是一个热情好客的人吗？我的意思是，你是一个友善的人吗？你是一个能让别人感到自在、能让他们感到放松的人吗？如果你实在没时间，那就直接说：“哎呀，我真的很忙。我很想和你通电话，但我得明天、下个月或者其他时候才行。”

你能做到既能及时回应，又能在需要的时候划清界限吗？因为有时候我们确实无法随时待命。我们需要明确彼此何时会再次出现。如果你和别人发生争执或冲突，最好不要超过15分钟，因为那样会让愤怒、怨恨或其他负面情绪长期积压在记忆中。所以，我们需要学会缩短争吵或冲突的时间，比如不超过20分钟。你可以这样说：“好吧，我们先搁置一下。一个小时后再说。你可以先去散散步，欣赏一下日落，或者我们去看场电影，然后再继续讨论，但我们需要休息一下。”

所以，我们没有，从