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<div class="story-meta-left"> <div class="story-logo"> <a href="https://www.dailygood.org"> <img alt="DailyGood" src="https://www.karunanews.org/pics/90x90.jpg"> </a> </div> <div class="story-meta-info"> <div class="story-author">By <a href="/author?name=On%20Being">On Being</a></div> <div class="story-details"> <span class="story-date">Nov 22, 2020</span> <span class="story-read-time">1 min read</span> </div> <div class="story-source">Source: <a href="https://onbeing.org/programs/richard-blanco-how-to-love-a-country/" target="_blank">onbeing.org</a></div> </div> </div>  <div class="story-meta-right">  <div class="utility-buttons"> <div class="dropdown"> <button class="utility-btn translate-btn dropdown-toggle py-1" type="button" id="translationDropdown" data-bs-toggle="dropdown" aria-expanded="false"> <i class="fa fa-language me-2" aria-hidden="true"></i>Chinese (PRC) </button> <ul class="dropdown-menu dropdown-menu-end translation-dropdown" aria-labelledby="translationDropdown" 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target="_blank" class="share-icon d-none d-sm-inline-flex" aria-label="Share on WhatsApp"> <i class="fab fa-whatsapp"></i> </a> </div> </div> </div>  <div class="story-content" id="dg_story"> <div class="dark-link perm_post"> 再次提醒，您可以在任何可以找到播客的地方收听。您还可以访问 onbeing.org 上的“体验诗歌”主页，细细品味本小时的所有诗歌——以及更多精彩内容。</p><p> [<em>音乐：Ry Cooder 和 Manuel Galbán 的“Drume Negrita”</em> ]</p><p><b>蒂佩特：</b>我是克丽斯塔·蒂佩特，这里是<em>《论存在》</em> 。今天，我们邀请到了古巴裔美国土木工程师出身的诗人理查德·布兰科。我们将探讨家和归属感的主题——包括物质层面和情感层面，个人层面和集体层面——正如理查德·布兰科在他的著作《<em>如何爱一个国家》</em>中所阐述的那样。我们的对话在肖托夸学院的露天剧场进行。</p><p><b>蒂佩特：</b>来之前我就跟你说过，如果你觉得有必要读读那些书，可以随便读。不过我想提个建议——我特意挑了几本——挺有意思的。你用了“移民”这个词。我觉得你描述自己家庭故事的时候最常用到的就是这个词，或者偶尔也会用“流亡”这个词。去年我跟人聊过汉娜·阿伦特（<em>编者注：克丽斯塔指的是</em><a href="https://onbeing.org/programs/lyndsey-stonebridge-the-moral-world-in-dark-times-hannah-arendt-for-now-jun2018/"><em>她</em></a><em>2017年接受林赛·斯通布里奇采访的事），</em>她写了很多关于流亡的文章。我和这位研究汉娜·阿伦特的学者（她现在也从事难民方面的工作）聊到，当我们用“移民”或“难民”这些词，或者像我现在这样，意识到“迁徙者”这个词的影响时，我们对这些人的想象会发生怎样的变化。我觉得语言把人抽象化了，让我们更容易把他们区分开来。总之，我一直在想这个问题。然后你写了这首名为《大河的抱怨》的诗，这首诗再次从一个完全不同的角度看待整个事件，那就是自然界的一部分被穿越，并在那一刻造就了人们……无论那是什么。</p><p><b>布兰科：</b>有些东西发生了变化。</p><p><b>蒂佩特：</b>想读读那本书吗？</p><p><b>布兰科：</b>当然，我很乐意。</p><p><b>蒂佩特：</b>第九页。</p><p><b>布兰科：</b>这让我有很多思考，不过……（<em>笑</em>）但就像你说的，我们先读一下。我从小就听说过美墨边境问题。我觉得在某种程度上，我们都对这个问题感到厌倦了，你的意思是说，我们不仅作为国家，而且作为整个西半球，都无法就这个原本不是问题的问题达成某种公平、友好、人道的解决——而我们却把它变成了问题。</p><p>它被抽象化，被政治化，过度政治化，我想，我该怎么做呢？让河流说话。让河流——所以这是一首以河流的口吻写成的诗——让全人类都听到它；[<em>笑</em>]让河流用手指着我们，这么说吧。</p><p> <a href="https://onbeing.org/poetry/complaint-of-el-rio-grande/">“El Río Grande 的投诉”</a> ：</p><p> “我注定要与万物相遇：<br />让云朵在镜子中停留片刻<br />我的水域，是落雨的家园<br />它最终来到我身边，跨越亿万年<br />冷漠的岩石变成相思成疾的鹅卵石<br />并将它们作为谦卑的礼物带回去。<br />大海让我重获新生。</p><p>我感受到了太阳的耀眼光芒，赞美着每一颗星星。<br />很久以前，它们就聚集在月亮周围。<br />你做到了。我呼吸过你永远无法呼吸的空气。<br />呼吸，聆听鸟鸣<br />在……之前，你可以说出他们的名字。<br />你曾在我身上划过桨，在你之前<br />创造了创造你的神明。</p><p>然后是国家——你的发明——地图<br />将世界拼图成彩色形状<br />用粗体字框起来，仿佛在说：你在这里。<br />不在那里，你是这样的，不是那样，也就是说：<br />黄色不是红色，红色不是黑色，黑色是<br />不是白色的，也就是说：<em>我的</em>，不是<em>我们的</em>，也就是说<br />战争，并认为生命的价值是相对的。</p><p>你叫我大河，把我画成蓝色的，<br />厚厚的，用来分隔，比如说：<em>西班牙佬</em>和<em>美国佬</em>，<br />换句话说：<em>非法移民</em>和<em>白人</em>。你让我分裂了。<br />分成两部分——一半是我，一半是他们。但是<br />我本不该淹死孩子，听着<br />母亲的哭泣，本不该是你的<br />地理：一条线，一个边界，一个凶手。</p><p>我注定要与万物相遇：<br />倒映着云朵和阳光的轻柔光芒，<br />鸟鸣声和静谧的月光，风<br />还有它的尘土，山雨的奔涌——<br />还有我们。你体内流淌的血液是水。<br />在我体内流淌，既有生命，也有真理<br />我们都知道：要彼此合一。</p><p>谢谢。</p><p> [<em>掌声</em>]</p><p>谢谢。Gracias。</p><p>那首诗至今仍能触动我的心弦。我自己也还在学习——创作的过程以及它与现实的联系，真的很有意思。我常说，我的诗比我聪明。我没那么聪明——每次重读那首诗，想到那条河，想到自己就是那条河，我都会经历一番复杂的生理反应。</p><p><b>蒂佩特：</b>你会读<a href="https://onbeing.org/poetry/america-the-beautiful-again/">《再次美丽美国》这</a>本书吗？</p><p><b>布兰科：</b>哦，当然。</p><p><b>蒂佩特：</b>第 66 页。</p><p><b>布兰科：</b>六六。这首诗的一部分，也就是这本书的书名《<em>如何爱一个国家》</em> ，既是一种陈述，也是一个问题。它也是一本自助书籍（<em>笑</em>），或许可以算作一本指导手册。还有一点，就像你刚才说的语言问题，为什么要写这样一本书——我不想让它变成一本单调乏味的书，我也想探索不同的东西，我不想因噎废食，让诗歌仅仅成为抗议之作。所以我又回到了这首关于爱国主义的诗，但那是你孩提时代感受到的那种纯真的爱国主义，那种对理想的纯粹热爱，至少对我来说，这个国家所代表的——我认为，它现在仍然代表着；所以，我又回到了那个领域。我还要唱一小段——如果你愿意，可以离开。</p><p> [<em>笑声</em>]</p><p>现在机会来了。</p><p>所以是<a href="https://onbeing.org/poetry/america-the-beautiful-again/">“美丽的美国”，</a>这显然是指那首歌。</p><p> “我唱得多么<em>美妙啊，哦，</em>像教堂里的赞美诗一样。”<br />我和母亲在一起，她的古巴口音越来越浓。<br />每个元音： <em>O，bee-yoo-tee-ful</em> ，然而完美<br />音调，细腻而与耀眼的光束相协调<br />彩色玻璃的光线。她是如何教我修理的<br />我们唱着感恩歌时，我的目光一直注视着十字架。<br />感谢我们的救星，感谢他为我们这个国家带来了救赎——<br />我们的声音吟唱着如同管风琴般充满激情的赞美诗。<br />歌声直达苍穹。我如何歌唱<br /><em>为了更靠近那些天空的广阔天空</em>，<br />栖息在我父亲被阳光晒得通红的肩膀上，<br />在我们第一次七月四日游行队伍中巍然耸立。<br />我们身体的音色是如何交融在一起的，<br />呼吸，歌唱，与铜管乐器的音符融为一体<br />行进乐队演奏着唯一的一首歌<br />他学过英语吗？我怎么敢唱这首歌？<br />在集会上，我那十几岁的声音开始变声<br /><em>那是我从未见过的琥珀色麦浪</em>，<br />既非<em>紫色的巍峨群山</em>——但可以<br />想象它们从我内心深处涌现，每一首诗都如此，<br />我大声发出每一句赞美之词，直到<br />我嗓子疼：<em>美国！</em>又是<em>美国！</em><br />我如何开始阅读尼采并开始怀疑上帝，<br />然而，他仍然渴望上帝将<em>恩典倾注于他身上。</em><br /><em>愿你，并以兄弟情谊为你的善行加冕。</em><br />尽管真相如此，我依然想歌唱。<br />我们的战争和枪声越来越响亮<br />比起学校的铃声，比起政客们的微笑，<br />僵局就悬在麦克风前，我们分裂的局面陷入僵局。<br />互相喊叫的声音，而不是<br />一起唱歌。我多么想再次歌唱——<br />无论美丑，和谐才是最重要<em>的——</em><br /><em>从东海岸到西海岸</em>——只有这一个国家<br />我知道该如何唱歌。</p><p>谢谢。</p><p> [<em>掌声</em>]</p><p><b>蒂佩特：</b>我是克丽斯塔·蒂佩特，这里是<em>《论存在》</em> 。今天我们邀请到了土木工程师兼诗人理查德·布兰科。</p><p> [<em>掌声</em>]</p><p><b>布兰科：</b>谢谢。</p><p><b>蒂佩特：</b>我有时会在谈话结束时问这个问题：你现在感到绝望的原因是什么？你又在哪里找到希望？我觉得我们对自己的绝望已经表达得很清楚了。我觉得我们都知道是什么让你心痛。我想问问你，你现在在哪里找到快乐，在哪里找到希望。</p><p><b>布兰科：</b>当然。我觉得这很有意思，因为我当时正好处于那种状态——我做一档小型广播节目，叫“乡村之声”。我们会分享诗歌，有时也会分享我的诗。这期节目——下周播出——我把它叫做<a href="https://www.wgbh.org/news/arts/2019/08/06/village-voice-richard-blanco-on-poems-that-help-us-surrender-to-oblivion-and-feel-renewed">“全国遗忘日”</a> （<em>笑</em>），里面的诗就像是“我再也受不了了”。而且，诗歌最棒的地方之一就是它能让我们深入到那种境界——在某种程度上，我们就能放下一些东西。所以我在寻找能做到这一点的诗歌，能让我承认并接受我们当下的处境。这多少有点帮助。但我一直在思考——我想是什么让我保持希望——而这正是我在所有这些绝望、恐惧和忧虑之间所感受到的——我认为我看到的最美好的事情之一，最早发生在禁止穆斯林入境之类的事件中，那就是人们，至少在我有生之年，第一次站出来支持一些并不直接影响到他们的事情。这就是民主。</p><p> [<em>掌声</em>]</p><p>所以我很高兴——我很高兴我们正在挺身而出，我们意识到，不，好吧，这——我没必要去参加抗议；这无关乎我个人。但是那首诗——你知道的，“起初他们抓了某某某”？还记得那首诗吗？我认为我们终于——我们不再那样做了。我们不再坐等他们来抓我们。我们正在挺身而出，意识到生活质量，这个国家的美德，在某种程度上取决于每个人的故事；我们的幸福取决于他人的幸福，我们正在从依赖走向相互依存。</p><p>我觉得这很美好。即使书中提出了一些问题——这本书在某种程度上让我感到害怕，因为我触及了一些我感觉自己没有资格去写的话题，比如墨西哥移民。但其实不然，这些话题之间存在共通之处。种族、性别，以及所有这些问题。我想，这正是我想要做的，我也想接纳每个人的经历，或许我们可以一起创造一些共同的语言，或者说一句“我也是”。我很高兴看到这一切正在发生。但是，在24小时新闻报道和各种片段之间，我们很难看到这一点，所以……</p><p><b>蒂佩特：</b>认真对待这件事，几乎成了一种修行，一种精神修行。这是我们中的一些人，足够多的人，共同践行你在《如何热爱一个国家》这本书开头提到的那句话的方式：“告诉我你与谁同行，我就能告诉你你是谁。” 所以，是我们，在拓展我们对自身身份的认知。</p><p><b>布兰科：</b>意识到我们一直在一起——或者说我们一直在一起，但现在才真正承认这一点。</p><p><b>蒂佩特：</b>所以这本书以《相互依存宣言》开篇。这首诗背后有什么故事吗？</p><p><b>布兰科：</b>再说一遍，寻找语言，寻找另一个角度，寻找另一种对话方式，以及人们在新闻中是多么容易被刻板印象和定型；还有，我们是如何对自己进行这种刻板印象的——“哦，你开红色皮卡；所以你一定是这样的人。你在全食超市购物；所以你一定是这样的人。你开斯巴鲁；所以你一定是这样的人。”我们意识到，这种即时的——我不会用“评判”这个词，但确实是一种定型——有时我们甚至都没有意识到——实际上一直在慢慢侵蚀我们的大脑。所以我只是想打破一些刻板印象，并让不同背景的人之间产生共情。</p><p>但归根结底，它源自一句<a href="https://exploringyourmind.com/sawubona-african-tribe-greeting/">祖鲁人的问候</a>语，这才是真正的灵感来源。他们的问候方式——不像我们，不像我们今天早上那样说“早上好”，而是“早上好，我需要咖啡。”[<em>笑</em>] 他们会看着彼此的眼睛，说：“我看到你了。” 被看见和被认可，这其中蕴含着一种不可思议的力量。如果我没记错的话，回应是：“我在这里就是为了被看见。我看到你了。” 所以，我们彼此之间并没有那么清晰地看到对方，而我认为这首诗正是试图让我们看清彼此。</p><p>而且它还有——“宣言”——我想我提到过，我们意识的下一个进化阶段是从依赖走向独立，而独立实际上是相互依存。这才是作为一个国家、一个民族、一个家庭、一个世界真正需要做的……[<em>笑</em>]</p><p><b>蒂佩特：</b>作为一个物种……</p><p><b>布兰科：</b>作为一个物种。如果我们面对——好吧，我们（不会）触及气候问题，但是——（<em>笑</em>）</p><p> “相互依存宣言”——这些是《独立宣言》的节选。</p><p><em>这就是患者所遭受的苦难……</em></p><p>我们是母亲在收银台前等待的面包、速溶土豆泥和牛奶。我们是她三个孩子，央求着要泡泡糖和他们的父亲。我们是她偷偷摸摸翻阅小报的三分钟，她需要相信，即使是明星的生活也同样充满欢乐和伤痛。我们一次又一次的祈求，得到的却只有一次又一次的伤害……</p><p>我们是她的第二份工作，在摩天大楼阴影下的路边咖啡馆里，为一位埋头阅读《华尔街日报》的高管服务。我们是他赢得的财富和他失去的家庭的影子。我们是他的损失，也是所有失去的人。我们是煤矿小镇上的父亲，因为经历了太多和太少的事情，时间太长了，他再也无法继续生活下去了。</p><p><em>一段屡次受伤和篡夺的历史……</em></p><p>我们是他那条主街上漆黑的窗户和涂鸦真理的见证。我们是另一个小镇上棕榈树成荫的街道，一对收藏非洲艺术品的和平队夫妇就住在这里。我们是他们晚宴上谈论的葡萄酒、挥舞的标语牌和烧毁的征兵卡。我们是他们所知道的：现在是时候做更多的事情了，而不仅仅是读《纽约时报》、买公平贸易咖啡和有机玉米。</p><p><em>在这些压迫的每一个阶段，我们都曾请愿要求伸张正义……</em></p><p>我们是种玉米的农夫，一天劳作下来，疲惫不堪地瘫坐在沙发上，腰酸背痛。我们是他电视里播放的新闻，新闻内容与他眼中的田间尘土、他怀里抱着的儿子都毫无关联。我们是他的儿子。我们是开车过快或过慢、说话过多或过少、行动过快或过慢的黑人少年。我们是子弹出膛的冲击波。我们是那个后悔开枪的警察的愧疚和悲痛。</p><p><em>我们彼此誓以生命、财产和神圣的荣誉为担保……</em></p><p><em>我们彼此誓以生命、财产和神圣的荣誉为担保……</em></p><p>我们是死者，也是守夜烛光摇曳中的生者。我们身处昏暗的牢房，与一位正在阅读陀思妥耶夫斯基的囚犯为伴。我们是他的罪行，他的刑罚，他的赎罪，我们治愈着自己，也治愈着他人。我们是佛教徒，与股票经纪人并肩在收容所里施粥。我们是彼此的庇护所和希望：寡妇在募捐盘里投下的五毛钱，高尔夫球手为治愈疾病捐出的一万美元。</p><p><em>我们认为这些真理是不言而喻的……</em></p><p>我们是治愈绝望之恨的良药。我们是记得我们名字的公交车司机的早安问候，是地铁上主动让座的纹身男士。我们是彼此凝视时，脸上带着微笑敞开的每一扇门，就像我们凝视月亮一样。我们就是月亮。我们是一个民族的承诺，一次呼吸，彼此宣告：<em>我看见你</em>。<em>我需要你</em>。<em>我就是你</em>。</p><p> [<em>掌声</em>]</p><p><b>蒂佩特：</b>谢谢你，理查德·布兰科。</p><p> [<em>掌声</em>]</p><p> [<em>音乐：Blue Dot Sessions 的《齐柏林飞艇》</em> ]</p><p><b>蒂佩特：</b>理查德·布兰科从事土木工程工作超过20年。他现在是母校佛罗里达国际大学创意写作专业的副教授。他的非虚构作品和诗集包括<em>《寻找海湾汽车旅馆》</em>以及最近出版的<em>《如何爱一个国家》</em> 。</p><p>说到诗歌，理查德·布兰科（Richard Blanco）本小时朗诵的所有诗歌都来自onbeing.org<a href="https://onbeing.org/poetry-home/">网站上的“体验诗歌”</a> （Experience Poetry）专栏，这是一个全新的慰藉与宁静之所。无论何时何地，无论身处何种境地，这里都有适合你的短篇和长篇诗歌。我们的世界喧嚣嘈杂、充满挑战、动荡不安。但你可以找到心灵的寄托，重获能量，并找到通往更深层次、更长远视野的道路。诗歌能助你一臂之力。再次强调，请访问onbeing.org网站，体验“体验诗歌”。</p><p> On Being Project 的成员包括 Chris Heagle、Lily Percy、Lauren Dørdal、Erin Colasacco、Eddie Gonzalez、Lilian Vo、Lucas Johnson、Suzette Burley、Zack Rose、Serri Graslie、Colleen Scheck、Christiane Wartell、Julie Siple、Gretchen Honnold、Jhaleh Akhavan、Pádraig Ó Tuama、Ben Katt 和 Gautam Srikishan。</p><table><tbody><tr><td colspan="2"></td><td colspan="2"></td></tr></tbody></table><p> “存在之道”项目位于达科他族保留地。我们优美的主题音乐由佐伊·基廷创作并演唱。节目结尾您听到的最后一个歌声来自卡梅伦·金霍恩。</p><p> 《存在之道》（On Being）是由“存在之道项目”（The On Being Project）独立制作的非营利节目，由WNYC Studios发行至公共广播电台。我曾在美国公共媒体（American Public Media）创作过这档节目。</p><p>我们的资助伙伴包括：</p><p>费策尔研究所致力于为充满爱的世界奠定精神基础。访问<a href="http://fetzer.org/">fetzer.org</a>了解更多信息。</p><p>卡利奥佩亚基金会致力于重建生态、文化和灵性之间的联系。支持那些维护与地球生命神圣关系的组织和倡议。了解更多信息，请访问<a href="http://kalliopeia.org/">kalliopeia.org</a> 。</p><p> Humanity United 致力于在国内和世界各地提升人类尊严。了解更多信息，请访问<a href="http://humanityunited.org/">humanityunited.org</a> ，该组织隶属于奥米迪亚集团。</p><p>乔治家族基金会支持公民对话项目。</p><p>鱼鹰基金会——致力于促进人们拥有充满力量、健康和充实的生活。</p><p>还有礼来基金会，这是一个总部位于印第安纳波利斯的私人家族基金会，致力于其创始人对宗教、社区发展和教育的兴趣。</p><p></p> </div> </div>    <div class="inline-share-icons border-0 mt-0 pt-0"> <div class="d-flex align-items-center"> <span class="me-3 fw-semibold">Share this story:</span> <div> <a href="http://www.facebook.com/sharer.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailygood.org%2Fstory%2F2633%2Fhow-to-love-a-country-on-being%2F" target="_blank" class="share-icon" aria-label="Share on Facebook"> <i class="fab fa-facebook-f"></i> </a> <a 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href="https://www.dailygood.org/story/2633/-p-p-iframe-allow-autoplay-frameborder-no-height-300-scrolling-no-src-https-w-soundcloud-com-player-url-https-3a-api-soundcloud-com-playlists-933503533-and-color-23ff5500-and-auto-play-false-and-hide-related-false-and-show-comments-true-and-a-on-being/?t=showComment&cid=8943" class="ms-auto link-icon text-muted"><i class='fa fa-link'></i></a> </div> <div class="comment-content"> <p>Thank you, for sharing Richard Blanco's powerfully moving poetry. <br>Here's to waking and walking together. <br>You've brought to mind a favorite Ram Dass quote, paraphrased, we're here to walk each other home. ♡</p> </div> <div class="comment-actions"> <a 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